Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[steppenw0lf]

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The sensor is the same in several cameras. (X1D, H6 and H5 50c, 503 digital back, Fuji, and some digital backs from other makers.)

It appeared first about 3 years ago in Hasselblad H5 and was then very expensive. (30k to 50k for total system)

Now, because it has been paid off, they sell it cheaper.

 

It is possible that the software is different, and that some cameras offer slightly different aspect ratios.

Edited December 6, 2016 by steppenw0lf

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[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

I have followed this thread from way back and have enjoyed the discussion along with the banter. For those of you that know me on this forum, I current have a S007 with three amazing lenses (all three have had the guts ripped out of them and replaced with high quality Thulium parts). My S007 body was also replaced with a new one after 3 months due to faulty internals)

 

So my experience with the S system has been a frigging nightmare, I have stuck with it through thick and thin and now hopefully I will have a system that should be good for years to come.

 

Why all of the above............well I was initially thinking of getting the X!D which I am sure will be an amazing camera system, but the Leica S system is also an amazing system with probably the best lenses on the market..........do I need another system (I don't think so). Do I need a smaller camera for walk about and travel absaf@cukinglutly I do, that is why I have decided to get a SL and Noctilux..........I just love the rendering of the 0.95 Noctilux........period :) 

 

I ordered it from my mates at Ffordes and should have it just after I get home on Saturday............Pictures to follow.

 

For all of you that have decided to jump ship (B@stards)............only kidding. I hope the new X!D meets and exceeds all your expectations

 

Love

 

Neil

[Guest]

For all of you that have decided to jump ship (B@stards)............only kidding. I hope the new X!D meets and exceeds all your expectations

 

Thanks I am pretty sure now it will after my second hour of demo inside, outside and in the studio.

[Jeff S]

 

 

The sensor is the same one I believe. I don'y know why the X1D is quoted as having 51.286 mp as opposed to 51.4 for the Fuji but I can't believe it makes a difference.

 

 

And the 645Z (also listed as 51.4 MP).  Not at all uncommon to have similar sensors from same manufacturer, with differing implementation system by system, e.g., software and possibly other proprietary specs.  And of course there are myriad other variables that may ultimately affect file rendering, e.g., things like AA filter or lack thereof, not to mention processing/editing software (Hasselblad Phocus), etc.  

 

In the end, since I'm no engineer, the specs don't really matter to me, but tests do (sorry to repeat).  I'm considering the SL, the X1D and the GFX based on what I've read....but it will interesting to see what real life produces.  (I've used the SL briefly at a Leica shop, and made prints, but waiting for primes to show up for more extensive tests.)  I don't expect IQ to be the limiting factor anyway......that's more likely to be other practical use issues....interface, handling/ergonomics, lens line, etc.  I'll still follow reviews and user reports, however, to better determine things like weather sealing, reliability issues, etc.

 

One thing I do like about both the X1D and GFX compared to the SL is the 4:3 standard aspect ratio (with full MP) versus the 3:2 aspect ratio of the 35mm SL.  And the initial lens roadmap for the MF cameras seem more to my style than the SL releases to date, with a seemingly smaller form factor. 

 

Oh, and then there's the possible new M.  I remain open.....until sometime during 2017.

 

Jeff

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

 

 

Oh, and then there's the possible new M.  I remain open.....until sometime during 2017.

 

Jeff

 

I know your just waiting for me to be the gunny pig Jeff :)

 

Neil

[Jeff S]

I know your just waiting for me to be the gunny pig Jeff :)

 

Neil

 

For the SL?  (edit....I see you were commenting on the M).  I've already read SL reports here for about a year now from the early adopters (pros and cons).  And I spent an afternoon with the camera months ago...only way for me to know if further testing is needed.

 

But I do always enjoy your entertainment.  I'm sure there will be more to come as you become alternatively thrilled and frustrated by issues discussed here already.  

 

As for a possible new M.....can't wait to see you consider that for your Noctilux, even after your SL.  You've already retracted your adversity to 35mm.     I predicted your eventual interest long ago....now just a matter of time.  The only drama will be whether you add it to the SL, or dump the SL in some sort of frustration.

 

Jeff

Edited December 6, 2016 by Jeff S

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

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.  You've already retracted your adversity to 35mm. 

 

Jeff

if you remember I asked a out a noctilux for the S007 but that was shot down in flames so I had no choice if I wanted to still play with a noctilux

[Jeff S]

if you remember I asked a out a noctilux for the S007 but that was shot down in flames so I had no choice if I wanted to still play with a noctilux

 

But of course there are other choices.....including various M models, film and digital.

 

Jeff

[cataar]

Has this new multipoint firmware been made available to dealers for their demo units?

 

Would like to try before buy.......

 

Best Regards,

 

ACG

 

Hasselblad has two digital systems (2 camps): The 503 with the digital back and thousends of Zeiss lenses (Hasselblad V lenses). Really wonderful to use them.

And the X1D with the new XCD lenses. I see the 6H and 5H in this camp. These lenses are much newer, but can they compete with the Zeiss ?

Why not combine the two worlds - that's one of the advantages of a mirrorless. I know that with the adapter the camera would not be so small anymore - I would not mind.

 

Regarding AFpoints. They are now at 63. So good enough for face recognition.  (at firmware 1.13, which is not final, yet)

[meerec]

Spent a day at a workshop at the National Portrait Gallery in Canberra, Australia's capital city :-) It was hosted by the exclusive Hasselblad distributor C.R.Kennedy in Australia. This was practically the launch of the X1D 50C or if not an official launch yet as such, two units with both lenses 45 and 90 were on the table to play with for the very first time.

 

H6D 100C was there too to be handled and played with at will with a numer of lenses.

 

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Here are my impressions and highlights. My field report from the day with Hasselblad.

 

(1) This was not yet the final firmware in the X1D. Both units are return to Sweden for final updates next week. However the IQ we were told is already what to be expected, it won't be any different to what I saw.

 

(2) IQ was almost perfect with one caveat as per below. Images are stunning detail and quality. Size of each on disk is 110 MB. Skin colour is very neutral and natural without any adjustments needed. In fact no adjustments rather than WB were needed in LR to my liking. The DOF falloff as expected is very nice and smooth as with any medium format files.

 

(3) One thing I was slightly disappointed with was noise at ISO 3200 and higher. I shot at max 3200 (as it was not enough light indoors and camera was configured with AUTO ISO 3200) and there was visible 'grain' in 100% magnification. No colour noise at all but grain – artefacts I used to see with Canon 5D files and then Fuji XF and Sony A7R 1 and 2 but never with SL. Not a big deal as a bit of luminance grain slider movement to the right in Details in LR fixed it but I don't see such artefacts in my DNG in SL files until ISO 12800. Strange.

 

(4) The shutter is not as noisy as was suggested earlier this week with the recording, quite low and acceptable. There is a bit of delay of about 1.5sec of rewinding the shutter after each shot, rather surprising, but apparently that is one thing which the final firmware will fix. Continuous shooting is naturally useless

 

(5) The EVF is pretty average, just like Sony A7R2 or similar. Once you've used the SL it's hard to go back to anything else. It's smallish and looks like a mini TV screen inside rather than a proper viewfinder. Sorry, SL wins hands down. The new final firmware will make a change to how the EVF operates, to make it work like the Sony one: you will be able to choose whether you want to have a display at its optimal, e.g. in studio shooting, highest brightness etc., or make it preview the shooting exposure.

 

(6) The ergonomics are very good. The body is only slightly larger than Leica Q. It is light, the grip is very well designed and gives great support. I don't know if I would ever need a strap, only to carry the,camera across my body because the balance and handling is very good such that I could carry it with any of the two lenses in my hand all day. The layout of the controls is clear, easy and optimised.

 

(7) As we all know, there is only one AF point in the centre of the EVF so you need to focus and re-compose. Not my favourite of course. Especially if you've used TrueFocus on the H5D or H6D it's hard to accept that X1D doesn't have TF and no selectable focus points either. Bummer.

 

(8) The availability will be very very limited. The distributor is expecting two (2) bodies at the earliest in February 2017 and not many more through the year. The queue is already very long with lots of people that have preordered.

 

(9) I didn't try to really focus manually as AF works well and fast enough with the two lenses, I tried manual focus on the barrel and it felt neutral and natural unlike focusing SL feels a bit focus-by-wire-like when shooting with the Leica 90-280 zoom (not that I ever need to manually focus the zoom). Focussing in low light or against bright light is difficult like with any other camera unless you manage to find a good contrast edge to point at.

 

(10) The two lenses are relatively small compared to any lens from the big brother H5/6D and are small and light compared to any current SL lens with AF. They both feel very solid though, all metal, including the hoods, which are not monstrous size either. The 45 and 90 lenses balance on the X1D body very well and together they create an easy package to carry. A new lens 30 (24 mm equivalent) is on the roadmap. Still quite a limited selection compared to what we get for the SL and the lenses are slow unfortunately. Not that you need to shoot with large aperture for better bokeh because you get that aplenty but you would want to shoot wide open to reduce ISO in low light.

 

I guess these are my first impressions from a limited use. No, I will not be buying the X1D. Compared to SL it doesn't give me any real advantage, in fact the SL is all I really want from a camera for now, it shines.

Edited December 7, 2016 by meerec

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

Spent a day at a workshop at the National Portrait Gallery in Canberra, Australia's capital city :-) It was hosted by the exclusive Hasselblad distributor C.R.Kennedy in Australia. This was practically the launch of the X1D 50C or if not an official launch yet as such, two units with both lenses 45 and 90 were on the table to play with for the very first time.

 

H6D 100C was there too to be handled and played with at will with a numer of lenses.

 

IMG_8316.JPG

 

Here are my impressions and highlights. My field report from the day with Hasselblad.

 

(1) This was not yet the final firmware in the X1D. Both units are return to Sweden for final updates next week. However the IQ we were told is already what to be expected, it won't be any different to what I saw.

 

(2) IQ was almost perfect with one caveat as per below. Images are stunning detail and quality. Size of each on disk is 110 MB. Skin colour is very neutral and natural without any adjustments needed. In fact no adjustments rather than WB were needed in LR to my liking. The DOF falloff as expected is very nice and smooth as with any medium format files.

 

(3) One thing I was slightly disappointed with was noise at ISO 3200 and higher. I shot at max 3200 (as it was not enough light indoors and camera was configured with AUTO ISO 3200) and there was visible 'grain' in 100% magnification. No colour noise at all but grain – artefacts I used to see with Canon 5D files and then Fuji XF and Sony A7R 1 and 2 but never with SL. Not a big deal as a bit of luminance grain slider movement to the right in Details in LR fixed it but I don't see such artefacts in my DNG in SL files until ISO 12800. Strange.

 

(4) The shutter is not as noisy as was suggested earlier this week with the recording, quite low and acceptable. There is a bit of delay of about 1.5sec of rewinding the shutter after each shot, rather surprising, but apparently that is one thing which the final firmware will fix. Continuous shooting is naturally useless

 

(5) The EVF is pretty average, just like Sony A7R2 or similar. Once you've used the SL it's hard to go back to anything else. It's smallish and looks like a mini TV screen inside rather than a proper viewfinder. Sorry, SL wins hands down. The new final firmware will make a change to how the EVF operates, to make it work like the Sony one: you will be able to choose whether you want to have a display at its optimal, e.g. in studio shooting, highest brightness etc., or make it preview the shooting exposure.

 

(6) The ergonomics are very good. The body is only slightly larger than Leica Q. It is light, the grip is very well designed and gives great support. I don't know if I would ever need a strap, only to carry the,camera across my body because the balance and handling is very good such that I could carry it with any of the two lenses in my hand all day. The layout of the controls is clear, easy and optimised.

 

(7) As we all know, there is only one AF point in the centre of the EVF so you need to focus and re-compose. Not my favourite of course. Especially if you've used TrueFocus on the H5D or H6D it's hard to accept that X1D doesn't have TF and no selectable focus points either. Bummer.

 

(8) The availability will be very very limited. The distributor is expecting two (2) bodies at the earliest in February 2017 and not many more through the year. The queue is already very long with lots of people that have preordered.

 

(9) I didn't try to really focus manually as AF works well and fast enough with the two lenses, I tried manual focus on the barrel and it felt neutral and natural unlike focusing SL feels a bit focus-by-wire-like when shooting with the Leica 90-280 zoom (not that I ever need to manually focus the zoom). Focussing in low light or against bright light is difficult like with any other camera unless you manage to find a good contrast edge to point at.

 

(10) The two lenses are relatively small compared to any lens from the big brother H5/6D and are small and light compared to any current SL lens with AF. They both feel very solid though, all metal, including the hoods, which are not monstrous size either. The 45 and 90 lenses balance on the X1D body very well and together they create an easy package to carry. A new lens 30 (24 mm equivalent) is on the roadmap. Still quite a limited selection compared to what we get for the SL and the lenses are slow unfortunately. Not that you need to shoot with large aperture for better bokeh because you get that aplenty but you would want to shoot wide open to reduce ISO in low light.

 

I guess these are my first impressions from a limited use. No, I will not be buying the X1D. Compared to SL it doesn't give me any real advantage, in fact the SL is all I really want from a camera for now, it shines.

The SL is  probably the sexiest camera I have ever had the chance to use and cant wait to be walking around with it next week :) It will sertinly take a act of peppermint to get it out of my hand once I get it.............S007 and Hasselblad doomed to the dry cabinet..............

 

Neil

[meerec]

The SL is  probably the sexiest camera I have ever had the chance to use and cant wait to be walking around with it next week :) It will sertinly take a act of peppermint to get it out of my hand once I get it.............S007 and Hasselblad doomed to the dry cabinet..............

 

Neil

Maybe not that sexy but after a year of use I got finally used to its ugliness LOL

[John McMaster]

The SL is  probably the sexiest camera I have ever had the chance to use and cant wait to be walking around with it next week

Neil

 

"trump' of the week award goes to........

 

john

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

"trump' of the week award goes to........

 

john

hahahahaha

[Jeff S]

Spent a day at a workshop at the National Portrait Gallery in Canberra, Australia's capital city :-) It was hosted by the exclusive Hasselblad distributor C.R.Kennedy in Australia. This was practically the launch of the X1D 50C or if not an official launch yet as such, two units with both lenses 45 and 90 were on the table to play with for the very first time.

 

 

Seems like nothing has changed since I and others attended demos as long ago as last June with the same 2 lenses and preliminary FW.  User reports echo many of your impressions.  We were told, however, that multiple focus points would be part of final FW.

 

Jeff

[steppenw0lf]

Has this new multipoint firmware been made available to dealers for their demo units?

 

Would like to try before buy.......

 

Best Regards,

 

ACG

 

 

The info is from Ming Thein. 

I’m at firmware 1.13 now, and that’s not final. We have 63 AF points.

 

I do not know which level of firmware is in the demo units.

Maybe ask your dealer about it. (If an update to this level is possible)

Edited December 7, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[Jeff S]

 

I do not know which level of firmware is in the demo units.

Maybe ask your dealer about it. (If an update to this level is possible)

 

I think the same demo units have been shipped around since mid-Summer, without change, despite interim advances....hence my post above.  Dealers aren't allowed to mess with the demo units...they're under Hasselblad strict control.

 

Jeff

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Thanks Meerec. Really enjoyed reading that. My impressions of your impressions....

 

It seems that Hasselblad have severely underestimated demand. 2 units by February is ludicrous. It also looks like they're a little lost as to how to respond. If Fuji film release in bulk (which they will) in the first half of 2017 then HB could really lose some sales. And if they can't make bodies then it leaves me with an impression that lenses will be slow as well. How long will the 30mm be in reality and how long after than to get a usable system? I knew that as soon as I purchased my 645Z there would be a new system released and it was. But now I think I may have made the right decision as I reckon at this rate it'll be years before the HB will be readily available and have a selection of lenses I would want.

 

While the SL system release is slow it looks positively rapid compared to the HB. Heck, Leica could almost announce and release a mirrorless S that takes the current lenses and have a mirrorless MF system in place before HB, the way things are going. Looks like Fujifilm might get there first, after all.

 

Gordon

Edited December 7, 2016 by FlashGordonPhotography

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[wellfleet]

I think the same demo units have been shipped around since mid-Summer, without change, despite interim advances....hence my post above.  Dealers aren't allowed to mess with the demo units...they're under Hasselblad strict control.

 

Jeff

 

 

It would appear that that not all Demo units are equal. On Oct.20, Hasselblad released the new firmware version 1.12.0 which was to be used only "on the new Demo cameras. Cameras used for the launch events can only use this update if they have a modified sensor position."

 

The link for the PDF instructions that explains this is @ http://static.hasselblad.com/2016/10/Release-Notes-X1D-1_12_0.pdf

The firmware can be had @ http://hasselblad.us9.list-manage.com/track/click?u=e56e0213806c5aee040ebeb22&id=1518f036c7&e=1292a7421f

 

The Boston dealer has this version installed on their demo(s).

[Sandokan]

Reading quietly for last 40 pages. I will wait. The one I choose will be by the following criteria:-

Haptics and how i feel using it

Which of my existing MF lenses i can use

The native lenses and how they fit with my view

 

 

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