M-D vs Edition 60

[colonel]

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Well, if it isn't "loud", what's the issue?  This really is dancing on the head of a pin.

 

Seriously !!! most people agree having a quieter shutter is a benefit

 

We understand you love your M60, but you can't right off all improvements in cameras released after your one ...

[IkarusJohn]

That's got to be the dumbest thing I've read in a while. 

 

"most people agree having a quieter shutter is a benefit"?  Since when and by what measure?  Most cellphones superimpose the sound of an SLR cocking. And at what point did an M(240), M60 or M246 or even an M9 have a noisy shutter?  Hasselblad, any SLR or even an A7 has noisier shutters.

 

My SWC, M3 and M-A have quiet shutters. Good thing? Noy really. The most recent camera I have is an SL - noisier than the M60. 

 

By all means measure camera quality by how quiet the shutter is, but I doubt Leica will take the blindest bit of notice. At least, I hope not.  I'd rather they concentrated their efforts on dynamic range. So far, they've made cameras i really like (with one or two exceptions). Apparently for you, not so much. 

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They did include a discreet mode, though.

[jaapv]

I must agree that any benefit is rather marginal. So somebody standing less than 3 meters from an M8 will hear the thing has fired. So what? The photograph has been taken, hasn't it? That is assuming you want to steal your images by stealth. In my experience not a very profitable tactic. People will see the machine stuck to your face anyway.

[jaapv]

They did include a discreet mode, though.

Sure, because of Internet pressure. Despite appearances sometimes, Leica does want to sell cameras.

[Auchtermuchty]

I did a job a while back which involved taking candid shots in a meeting room, while a meeting was in progress. I used my little Fuji X100 rather than my Canon 5D3 specifically because of its ultra-quiet leaf shutter, and I was very pleased with the way it allowed me to work.

 

I've also owned an M-8 in the past and, although I loved it, the shutter (re-cocking) did annoy me and I would never have chosen it for the job above. The 'discreet mode' was helpful in some situations, but it was in fact a deferred noise rather than a quieter noise, so still wouldn't have helped in the meeting room.

 

So yes, shutter noise is important to me, but my benchmark is the M-8, and I accept that's probably nothing like the more modern models. 

[jaapv]

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That is true, but for such thing I would never use a camera with a mechanical shutter. The only thing one could get away with was a film Leica's cloth shutter, but that was really faute de mieux as fully electronic shutters did not exist back then.

[colonel]

That's got to be the dumbest thing I've read in a while. 

 

"most people agree having a quieter shutter is a benefit"?  Since when and by what measure?  Most cellphones superimpose the sound of an SLR cocking. And at what point did an M(240), M60 or M246 or even an M9 have a noisy shutter?  Hasselblad, any SLR or even an A7 has noisier shutters.

...

By all means measure camera quality by how quiet the shutter is, but I doubt Leica will take the blindest bit of notice. At least, I hope not.

 

That's got to be the dumbest post I have ever read period. Dismissing a feature because you want to maintain the value of your camera and pretending its feature based

 

Many people desire quieter shutters. Some don't. It certainly seen as a positive advantage by Olympus, Sony, Canon, Leica and many others

 

Of course you can dismiss all of them as well.

 

The whole army is out of step and you are the only one in step LOL

[satijntje]

There is not much different in the shutter noise from the M60 and other M cameras!

John

[jaapv]

That's got to be the dumbest post I have ever read period. Dismissing a feature because you want to maintain the value of your camera and pretending its feature based

 

Many people desire quieter shutters. Some don't. It certainly seen as a positive advantage by Olympus, Sony, Canon, Leica and many others

 

Of course you can dismiss all of them as well.

 

The whole army is out of step and you are the only one in step LOL

I would call this a rather pointless discussion, given that all mechanical shutters (except maybe for minimalistic central ones like the Digilux2) are inferior to electronic shutters regarding sound. It is a bit like little urchins debating who has the least dirty face

[pop]

I would call this a rather pointless discussion....

I don't.

 

People have turned to find the source of the noise when I took some pictures with the D3 (the Digilux, that is). 

 

Leaf shutters are quite silent, focal plane shutters are not, neither are moving mirrors. I vastly prefer the noise of the M (Typ 240) over the noise of the M8 and so does my wife. When I use the D2 or the XV or any of my ancient film cameras, my wife inquires why I did not take a picture, having taken such a long time aiming and all that.

[colonel]

I would call this a rather pointless discussion, given that all mechanical shutters (except maybe for minimalistic central ones like the Digilux2) are inferior to electronic shutters regarding sound. It is a bit like little urchins debating who has the least dirty face

 

not really

Have you heard the original Sony A7 !!!

Of course there is the law of diminishing returns but there are big and noticeable differences ...

 

You are correct of course, eventually the pixel electronic shutter will be the best, but many people will still also like the click of a mechanical one

 

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/9215387.html

[Jon Pop]

Re: the earlier comment about the dealership confirming that the buffer is 2GB, it's actually NOT - at least according to page 104 of the instruction manual of the MD262. Technical data there indicates the buffer memory to be 1GB. Though not a deal breaker ultimately, for me this was a disappointment, given the 2GB buffer of my MP240. I downloaded the instruction manual from Leica's website; if anyone has any counter information for me, I'd appreciate it. The storage medium section also on page 104 says "SD cards up to 2GB/SDHC cards up to 32GB/SDXC cards".  Is this a typo? I'm currently using 64GB cards in my 240. 

[pop]

..... "SD cards up to 2GB/SDHC cards up to 32GB/SDXC cards".  Is this a typo? I'm currently using 64GB cards in my 240. 

They have upped the limit in one of the more recent software upgrades.

[Budfox]

Re: the earlier comment about the dealership confirming that the buffer is 2GB, it's actually NOT - at least according to page 104 of the instruction manual of the MD262. Technical data there indicates the buffer memory to be 1GB. Though not a deal breaker ultimately, for me this was a disappointment, given the 2GB buffer of my MP240. I downloaded the instruction manual from Leica's website; if anyone has any counter information for me, I'd appreciate it. The storage medium section also on page 104 says "SD cards up to 2GB/SDHC cards up to 32GB/SDXC cards".  Is this a typo? I'm currently using 64GB cards in my 240. 

 

 

Jon - the reference to Leica confirming 2GB memory was in reference to the M60, not the M-D which definitely only has 1GB. If you want a 2GB LCD'less camera you need to go for the M60.

 

Goes back to the original question M60 v M-D (before the shutter sound debate erupted).

[ramarren]

I'll take either ME60 or M-D, thank you. Anyone wanting to bin theirs due to the horrid extra noise of the shutter or the unseemly small 1G buffer, please let me know and I'll send you a pre-paid shipper ... 

[Jeff S]

Once again, the 'shutter' noise complaints by some in the M8/M9 models was the motor re-cock sound, not the shutter itself.  This was the key distinction from former film Ms.  The discreet mode merely delayed the motor re-cock.  The M240 addressed this issue.  Every change since then has been marginal.  

 

Jeff

[IkarusJohn]

.. Dismissing a feature because you want to maintain the value of your camera and pretending its feature based ...

 

Whatever gave you that idea?  

 

I have zero interest in the resale value of my cameras - I bought them to use them.

 

The feature that attracted me to the M60 was the lack of an LCD, and the consequences which followed that design decision. That's the point of this discussion. 

 

Every product involves a compromise and ultimately acceptance of minor things that any buyer or user might like to change or have different. Every Leica release is accompanied by discussion of flaws and "deal breakers", some major, others not so much. Generally, most Leica cameras come out well conceived. 

 

Minimal difference in shutter noise between the M-D and M60 is neither here nor there. The lack of strap lugs is an integral part of the M60 design, which Leica addresses with the beautifully made half case. I can understand some not liking half cases, finding the fixed strap too short and preferring a naked camera with a strap of their choice.  I see that as an irrelevant factor in the overall assessment of this camera - I have simply accepted that as part of the overall design, and I have not found it a problem. 

 

In the scheme of things, I must admit I find shutter noise and strap lugs a very odd basis for choosing camera equipment. Others do. 

 

These cameras have very specific appeal which will not suit many. My objections to many of the comments made when the M60 was released, and to an extent when the M-D broke cover, were to the lack of acceptance that some may have valid reasons for wanting and enjoying such a camera. As Jeff pointed out at surprising length and vigour some time ago, my reasons for not liking the M(240) made no sense to him; he conflates my dislike of the overall conception of the M(240) with his dislike of the lack of strap lugs. I don't think they are really comparable, being of very different scale, but the point is still well made. 

 

The biggest difference is the M(240) was Leica's flagship and pointed the direction of future M cameras (my dislike being much like PeterH's concerns over the direction shown by the release of the SL).  Strap lugs on a release of 600 special edition cameras of very limited appeal is hardly comparable. The M-D by comparison is a production model, has strap lugs, and apparently a nicer shutter noise (if that floats your boat). So don't buy the M60. It's no odds to me or anyone else either way.

 

If prices are as reported, though, a new M60 is the obvious choice, surely, strap lugs or no ...

[Jeff S]

 As Jeff pointed out at surprising length and vigour some time ago, my reasons for not liking the M(240) made no sense to him; he conflates my dislike of the overall conception of the M(240) with his dislike of the lack of strap lugs. I don't think they are really comparable, being of very different scale, but the point is still well made. 

 

 

 

Oh my.  Long time passed, but yet you still don't get my point.  I never thought you should or shouldn't like the M240 (why should I?)....my vigor was in considering the M60 essentially an M240 without a screen, along with other cosmetic design changes.  You bristled at that characterization, is all.  I always understood your thoughts about the 'half assed' or 'crippled' M240 additions, even though I had a different view about them (i.e., simply turn them off).  Folks have different preferences.....I always got that, and don't begrudge others for their choices.  

 

My top priority for ANY camera (35mm to large format) is the viewing system.....how I see (and focus on) the scene.  If that doesn't suit, NOTHING else matters.  After that, it's mostly about camera interface/controls, IQ and a host of other factors.  Until Leica started 'innovating', I never gave a thought to a digital camera without a screen (I'd never buy one), or any 35mm camera without strap lugs (wouldn't buy that either).  That's just me.  I don't care that others feels differently.  But I get the concept.

 

Jeff

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[IkarusJohn]

... I always understood your thoughts about the 'half assed' or 'crippled' M240 additions, even though I had a different view about them (i.e., simply turn them off).  Folks have different preferences.....I always got that ... 

 

 

It didn't seem so at the time, and even now your summary isn't quite right.  But then, a lot of virtual ink was wasted trying to explain and I see no point in trying again.

 

The more critical point, for me anyway, is as mentioned above - once the M(240) was released, it was impossible to unring that particular bell.  Leica has addressed the issue by releasing Monochrom, M-E, M262 and now M-D versions, but the future of the M flagship is, I'd suggest, unlikely to be without video and all the other multitude of options and additions that were introduced after the M9.  They may be better implemented (not "half-assed" as Jeff rightly quotes me as saying when the M(240) was released), but the damage has been done.

 

PeterH was echoing a slightly different concern when the SL was released - what was that camera going to do to the M?  For myself, Leica having produced a proper implementation of the electronic advantages of the new CMOS sensor, the SL did provide an opportunity for Leica to return the M to its core values, based around the optical coupled rangefinder that is central to the M's existence.  Peter doesn't want that, and I think it is unlikely to happen.  I see Leica as saying that future mainstay M cameras will provide the best that technology can provide in that package, with no less functionality than the M(240) provides; and they will then produce what some "purists" want with Monochrom, video-less and perhaps LCD-less versions.

 

My problem with the M(240) is that Leica has squeezed things into it (badly) which are inconsistent with the core functionality of a coupled rangefinder.  For those who want live view, video and everything else the electronics have to offer, then a camera based on the best implementation of those things is a better choice - the SL is that camera.  It's not that I don't want those things - over that period, I had a NEX-5n, A7, D800E and Leica T - I just don't want them in the M.  Leica cameras set themselves apart not so much for what they include as what they  exclude.  Sonys will make coffee for you and call your mother while they're at it; Leicas always provided less because it wasn't needed for great photography, and none more so than the M.

 

Turn the functions off, use gaffer tape?  Don't buy the crappy rebadged EVF, don't use live view?  That misses the point that adding that clutter and doing it less well than the rest of the camera detracts from its core functionality.  Go back and read the pages and pages of faults discussed here on the M(240) - few of those, apart from failing strap lugs, relate to the excellent rangefinder and new sensor ...

Edited June 15, 2016 by IkarusJohn