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M-D vs Edition 60


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Can anyone point to a summary of the differences between the Edition 60 and the M-D? An obvious difference is the lack of a thumbwheel for exposure compensation (etc) in the 60 - is that feature provided by other means? Or just absent? Any other differences apart from the start lugs? And, in your opinion, would the Edition 60 + 35 Summilux kit be a better investment/heirloom than the M-D with a good Summicron?

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Al

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The M60 does not offer an exposure compensation capability.  It also powers off after 2 minutes - the M-D now does this after 10 mins with the new firmware update released today.

 

Otherwise, as you say, the differences are cosmetic.  Lack of strap lugs is quite limiting in my view. It's a beautiful thing though, the M60.

 

In terms of investment, hard to know. Some dealers have dropped their prices quite savagely.  But when all units have been sold, who knows? The stainless steel 35 Summilux alone could be worth a few bob in the future, perhaps.......

 

However, in terms of current price, at least one UK dealer is now offering the M60 kit at about £600 less than the combined cost of a new M-D and new 35 Summilux FLE......

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Poor investment would be my take on it, but then no worse than any other Leica.

 

In terms of functionality, as John says - I seriously doubt you would notice any difference at all in practice - no exposure compensation wheel being the biggest difference, but then I tend to shoot most of the time in manual.  The biggest difference is that the 60 body and lens is CNC cut from stainless steel - it's heavy, but beautifully made.  The corners really are very sharp!

 

As to the lugs, that's a first world problem - very low on my list of important things in a camera.  With the leather half case on, it sits in my hands really nicely and looks fantastic, and is safe over my shoulder (on this point, many may find the strap too short to go across their shoulders, rather than hang off one).  If it were me, for a £600.00 discount on the M-D and 35 Summilux FLE list prices, I'd buy it in a heartbeat (but then, I already have); it's cheaper than the standard camera and lens at list price.  

 

The M60 version of the 35 Summilux is the best built Leica lens I've every used (I have 7, and only the 75 Summilux isn't the current version), in terms of fit and feeling (better than my Noctilux and as good as my 15/2.8 Distagon).  The M60 is my one lens kit.

 

Good luck!

John

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Poor investment would be my take on it, but then no worse than any other Leica.

 

In terms of functionality, as John says - I seriously doubt you would notice any difference at all in practice - no exposure compensation wheel being the biggest difference, but then I tend to shoot most of the time in manual.  The biggest difference is that the 60 body and lens is CNC cut from stainless steel - it's heavy, but beautifully made.  The corners really are very sharp!

 

As to the lugs, that's a first world problem - very low on my list of important things in a camera.  With the leather half case on, it sits in my hands really nicely and looks fantastic, and is safe over my shoulder (on this point, many may find the strap too short to go across their shoulders, rather than hang off one).  If it were me, for a £600.00 discount on the M-D and 35 Summilux FLE list prices, I'd buy it in a heartbeat (but then, I already have); it's cheaper than the standard camera and lens at list price.  

 

The M60 version of the 35 Summilux is the best built Leica lens I've every used (I have 7, and only the 75 Summilux isn't the current version), in terms of fit and feeling (better than my Noctilux and as good as my 15/2.8 Distagon).  The M60 is my one lens kit.

 

Good luck!

John

 

Thanks John!

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Al,

In summary the differences I am aware of are as follows:

- lack of strap lugs (but you get a matching case including strap included). My main gripe with this is forced additional weight about 150g for the case and you can't use a wrist strap unless attached to the tripod attachment.

- no exposure compensation - not ever actually bothered me with this camera. As per John, I use manual mode so not needed.

- M60 has no 'C' continuous mode, just off, on (single shot), and third click used to set the time and open the shutter for sensor cleaning.

- M60 supposed to have 2GB memory compared to M-D 1GB. However, I have never seen any formal specs from Leica to confirm.

- M60 sleeps at 20secs and auto off about 2 mins. M-D auto off 10 mins.

- the M60 body alone weighs 700g - the same as the M-D. However, you need to use the case which adds about 150g of weight as above. Also the lens is heavier than the standard 35 Lux (about 420g). Note these weights are mine own measurements minus the heavy stainless steel metal body and lens caps of the M60.

- The M60 shutter is flat with no screw for remote cable release. I think the flat shutter feels nicer than the usual open top ones.

- the design of the camera means that the left side of the rangefinder window provides slightly out from the curve of the body. It's protected in the case however. For what it is worth, I still feel the rangefinder is cleaner and clearer that any of my other digital leicas including M9 and prior M240. This may be placebo effect however due to the cost of the camera as not reported elsewhere that I have seen.

 

As per John, subjectively the lens is a great design and different to any other Lieca lens I have seen - it also looks great on a black Leica body. The body also looks brilliant, though may be more conspicuous than a plain black body.

 

Of course, I am convinced that the M60 will only ever go up in price once they sell them all. I reckon it could be worth well over 1million USD in about 10 years - but that is only my totally unbiased opinion.

 

Budfox

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You missed that the M-D has a neat step on the top plate ....

 

Also the M-D has the new quieter shutter

 

Think about what you are using the camera for. The M-D is more subtle for street shooting, the M60 is more beautiful but in your face

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Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Leica-M-D-Typ-262-camera-front.jpg

 

Edited by colonel
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When I bought mine, Leica confirmed it's the same spec as the M-P; it has the 2GB buffer.

 

There are many words that could be used to describe the M60; "in your face" wouldn't be one of them. The stainless is treated, so it's subtle, and the leather covering have that fine texture. When I use it, it draws attention, but only because of its elegant beauty.

 

Just about every other other Leica shouts look at me by comparison.  Many here subscribe to the myth that black cameras have stealth or are more professional.  I don't buy that for a moment.  Silver chrome looks old fashioned, and the stainless just looks cool - it certainly doesn't say look at me ...

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I thought, from pictures n the 'net that the M60 looked a little 'look at me,' too...

 

Until I had a play with one at Leica Mayfair just after they came out. It was absolutely beautiful and, had I not just bought my M-P and  if it had strap lugs, I would have bought one.

 

Now I have had my M-P for well over a year and ended up with a few lenses, I have spent almost as much as that M60 would have cost... (Not quite, but I'm known for kidding myself!).

 

And much as I like my M system, I'm coming round to thinking that I should really have bought a Summilux 35FLE and used just one lens and not bothered with my 50 Lux and 35 Cron... or anything else.

 

Which kind of makes it worse... 

 

Maybe I'm fortunate the M60 didn't have strap lugs... 

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I will eventually buy an M-D to work with alongside the M-P and SL for when I feel it is the appropriate body. It is exactly what I wished for the moment I saw the ME60: a standard production black body with the feature set of the ME60. It just happened that the M-P came into my hands first. A secondhand ME60 sans lens was available at that time, but the price was higher than what I was willing to pay; it would have been fine regardless of the minor differences in features. 

 

Right now, I basically use three lenses almost 100% of the time with the M-P: the Summilux 35 v2 from 1972, a new Summarit-M 75/2.4, and an almost new Tri-Elmar-M 16-18-21/4 ASPH. When I buy the M-D, I'll likely add a Summicron-M 50/2 to my kit so as to have the right mix of lenses for two bodies available. 

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Thanks all. I've also noticed just now that the 60 doesn't have the tramline lever that the M-D does. Not a problem I think. Not as much as the louder shutter might be...

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the "louder" ME60 shutter at all. It's the same as the M-P shutter, which is barely louder than the shutter in my M4-2. The difference between it and the 262 series shutter is just about as insignificant in practical use as can be imagined. 

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I thought, from pictures n the 'net that the M60 looked a little 'look at me,' too...

 

Until I had a play with one at Leica Mayfair just after they came out. It was absolutely beautiful and, had I not just bought my M-P and  if it had strap lugs, I would have bought one.

 

Now I have had my M-P for well over a year and ended up with a few lenses, I have spent almost as much as that M60 would have cost... (Not quite, but I'm known for kidding myself!).

 

And much as I like my M system, I'm coming round to thinking that I should really have bought a Summilux 35FLE and used just one lens and not bothered with my 50 Lux and 35 Cron... or anything else.

 

Which kind of makes it worse... 

 

Maybe I'm fortunate the M60 didn't have strap lugs... 

 

 

To be honest, the lack of strap lugs cleans up the camera in the hand (if you really want that naked look and will take the risk of dropping the camera).  For myself, the half case looks great, fits the camera snugly and firmly (screwed into the tripod mount) better than any other half case I've had and it feels very good in the hand.  The camera is what it is, and I'm very happy with it that way.

 

What's this loud shutter nonsense?  It has the same shutter as the M(240), but it's in a thick stainless steel and leather case.  It doesn't have a noisy shutter at all.

 

First World nitpicking - reminds me of a friend of my son's when her was about 7 years old saying that his father would have bought a Ferrari, but the seats didn't fit ...

Edited by IkarusJohn
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I forgot about the missing frame selection lever in the M60, and the theoretically quieter shutter in the M-D, however I have compared the M60 and M240 and I could not say one was quieter, just a very very slight difference in quality.

 

I do think the extra 2GB is a substantive difference in terms of technical specs - thanks for the confirmation John. It's funny that the M60 does not have C mode despite the extra memory buffer. Notwithstanding, I do think it is good to have the extra memory as ultimately it will make the camera less likely to slow down writing photos or likely to crash etc.

 

The box for the camera is also much, much bigger - and for some reason that does bug me, even though it's only stored in the back of a cupboard somewhere.

 

The M60 set does feel like a super well made item as well, even better that the still expensive standard issue M's.

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What's this loud shutter nonsense?  It has the same shutter as the M(240), but it's in a thick stainless steel and leather case.  It doesn't have a noisy shutter at all.

 

no one said loud shutter in the M240/M-P/M60, one merely said quieter shutter in the M-D (and M262). Which it is ...

lower pitched and shorter sound ...

Edited by colonel
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no one said loud shutter in the M240/M-P/M60, one merely said quieter shutter in the M-D (and M262). Which it is ...

lower pitched and shorter sound ...

 

Well, if it isn't "loud", what's the issue?  This really is dancing on the head of a pin.

 

I don't mean to labour the point, but I have never come across a group of enthusiasts quite like this Leica group - pernickety would be putting it mildly.  From the M9 (I wasn't about for the M8) having a noisy shutter, to the M(240) being too thick and the M Edition 60 having no strap lugs ...  These are issue which have zero impact on photography or image quality.  I don't get it.

 

For me, the core issue with any camera is, can I work it out?  is it intuitive? what is the image quality like?  I can't get even remotely excited about things like shutter noise, thickness, strap lugs and all the other stuff which gets people here excited as, to be honest, I'm grateful Leica actually makes these cameras.  I imagine there is a design committee somewhere in Wetzlar where this stuff gets kicked around.  Auto-off, review-off, AF functionality on the SL, use of the joystick for focus magnification etc - all actually very important.  But the rest?  The cameras could play jingle bells when you release the shutter for all I care (okay, maybe not jingle bells, but you get my drift).

 

There are more important things to worry about.

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Well, if it isn't "loud", what's the issue?  This really is dancing on the head of a pin.

 

I don't mean to labour the point, but I have never come across a group of enthusiasts quite like this Leica group - pernickety would be putting it mildly.  From the M9 (I wasn't about for the M8) having a noisy shutter, to the M(240) being too thick and the M Edition 60 having no strap lugs ...  These are issue which have zero impact on photography or image quality.  I don't get it.

 

For me, the core issue with any camera is, can I work it out?  is it intuitive? what is the image quality like?  I can't get even remotely excited about things like shutter noise, thickness, strap lugs and all the other stuff which gets people here excited as, to be honest, I'm grateful Leica actually makes these cameras.  I imagine there is a design committee somewhere in Wetzlar where this stuff gets kicked around.  Auto-off, review-off, AF functionality on the SL, use of the joystick for focus magnification etc - all actually very important.  But the rest?  The cameras could play jingle bells when you release the shutter for all I care (okay, maybe not jingle bells, but you get my drift).

 

There are more important things to worry about.

[bold mine]

 

C'mon, John.  Most of us (myself included) have specific needs/wants....and even pet peeves....for our gear.  Yours may just be different than those of others.  You've been clear, for instance, that aspects of the M240 annoy you death....yet none of them impact IQ one iota, and can be ignored with a menu click.  And the whole notion of a digital camera without a screen is anathema to many, yet a plus for you, despite having no bearing on IQ.

 

Ergonomics....styling....sounds....touchability....features....etc....etc...etc.    There are dozens of aspects that attract....or repulse...Leica buyers.  I personally would never buy an M without strap lugs....I hate cases.....and I like having the option to carry a camera on my shoulder.  Fine that others feel differently....but hardly difficult to understand these simple differences in tastes.  Even yours.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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All true, Jeff. However, comparing the subtleties (and the difference in sound between the M60 & M-D is small, if detectable) is getting a bit extreme, don't you think?  

 

Not sure that my dislike of the EVF, video, Heath Robinson/Swiss army knife and, in my view, half-assed nature of much of the M(240) is really in the same league.   Those issues on the M(240) would have stopped me from buying one (my M9 was still going fine at that stage). Shutter noise and strap lugs wouldn't. Matter of degree, but then none of us really make our decisions only on extreme positions do we?

 

Having said that, LCT announced that not being able to focus magnify the SL using the joystick was a deal killer for him. When that was changed, though, he didn't buy one, so there must have been more to it than that.

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Shutter sound per se has never been an issue for me; the motor re-cock noise has.  And the M240 fixed that for me, compared to my M8.2.  Others differ.  So?

 

As for your second paragraph, you just reinforced my point.  Your 'swiss army knife' is my simple RF camera with default deletions.  'Extreme' positions for you may not be mine, and vice versa.  I couldn't disagree more about the M240, or about strap lugs, which absolutely would be deal stopper for me.  But at least I can see your point of view.  But you can't see mine....I'll get over it.

 

lct made his own decision based on his own tastes/preferences/needs, etc.  And maybe he'll change his mind.  So what?  It doesn't make him unusual or hard to understand.   I'd like to have a nickel for every person here who said one thing on the forum, only to go in another direction.  it seems more the norm here.

 

Anyway, the key point of yours that I tried to counter is the notion that only IQ matters.  Clearly it doesn't for you (see paragraph two above).....or for just about anyone else.  It's part of what makes the forum endlessly entertaining.

 

Jeff

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