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Zeiss Viewfinder debate for the WATE


Guest guy_mancuso

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Guest guy_mancuso

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Well something new to talk about and killing time waiting for a the rest of this project to hit my door in a hour and than I go 4 days without stopping on putting a program book together so anyway. i have the WATE and right now i have the Zeiss 21mm finder that i use for it and that covers the 16mm setting on the WATE but i just bought the Zeiss 25/28 also , i know for the price of two of them i could have bought the Frenkenfinder. But i am in mental dilemma . The 25/28 finder will be for the 18mm and 21mm setting which i use these settings a lot the 21mm the most. Normally i guess with the viewfinder for 21mm but i always leave the magnifer on so it really is a guess and real hard to see the full frame. now when i had the CV15mm i never even used a finder it was a P&S style. i think i may go back to that style with the WATE at 16mm. i figure if i can see the 18mm setting in the finder than that 2 degrees more i can just guess at it and the 18mm and 21mm will have precise framing which is more to my liking anyway. What i am hoping is for a little extra room on the 25/28 finder to maybe see what 16mm is doing but Daid Seelig pretty much said i am screwed there which is fine 16mm will be more guess work but 18 and 21 will be precise and I think overall will work better. i get the new 25/28 finder tomorrow and i will really test this theory out next week in NY but will keep the 21mm finder for now and see how it goes.

 

Now i bought the Zeiss finders although very expensive 350 each because they distort the least out of the other finders and really any interior work you don't want distortion because it is hard to line up. Now the Frankenfinder i only played with and it certainly is nice but i think later down the road I will get one unless i can steal one for cheap. Just some random thinking

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Sounds to me like you have already convinced yourself that the Frankenfinder makes the most sense. I ended up getting it with WATE as a package. It's very impressive. The only thing I am concerned about is the need to change the menu setting and the finder magnification every time you change the focal length.

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That's why i did not buy it initially by the time you change the finder than the menu item than the lens , well the image is long gone or just bored to tears playing with all those controls. LOL

 

I think the Frankenfinder makes great sense to someone that either works off a tripod or time is not a big issue. Now i can feel Jono coming so let's see what he has to say. LOL

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Help I am being quoted in public Seriousily I thought it seemed no where near precise to use the 25 to 28 on the 15 voigt or a 16 wate I am poor I got the 15 voigtlander. The 25 to 28 zeiss is great on the 21 zeiss Anyone want a a leica 21 24 28 viewfinder? or trade for a 21 viewfinder? Teh zeiss is miles ahead at 28 then the leica tri and much nicer view then a voigtlander viewfinder.

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Guest guy_mancuso

LOL had to put you on the spot David. LOL

 

I get mine tomorrow and will have to see what to do next. Seriously thanks for your help on this

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That is the problem Mark i did not buy it with the WATE so now the best price is 780 US. I may have to borrow one at some point and try it. i will be in NY and may go to B&H and Tamarkin and look around. Man that is dangerous just mentioning there names. Might be better off if someone stole my wallet instead. LOL

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The Frankenfinder is large and distorts, but the distortion ends up not mattering so much, because of course, the view of the world distorts with it, duh :) You can actually line things up quite accurately, you just end up lining up two curved lines with each other, the real world and the finder. I get more accurate framing with the M8 and the Frankenfinder than any other frameset.

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How is turning a dial on the large Leica finder somehow more difficult and time consuming that removing a viewfinder and inserting a different one? Am I missing something?

 

Personally I think it's great that Guy buys and then almost immediately sells so much kit - otherwise I wouldn't have a 75mm Summicron today <grin>.

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Well, I started off with the VF for 21CV because I only had a 15mm lens (bought 21 VF separately). When I got the WATE, I bought 21, 24, 28 Leica VF, and had been using it since, for both 15 and the WATE.

 

But now I have lost them! spent an hour looking for the VF last night ;) Small expensive wonders keep disappearing ....

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Guest guy_mancuso
How is turning a dial on the large Leica finder somehow more difficult and time consuming that removing a viewfinder and inserting a different one? Am I missing something?

 

Personally I think it's great that Guy buys and then almost immediately sells so much kit - otherwise I wouldn't have a 75mm Summicron today <grin>.

 

 

Stevev i will probably just keep the 25/28 and sell the 21. I will guess at the 16mm setting but the VF should help some , will just count on more outside the 18mm lens

 

And yes i feel like the resident guinea pig. My wallet rolled over by a steam roller to boot. LOL

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I've kind of got used to the Leica 21-24-28. It covers the fields for me and I've not had problems lining things up. If ever I use a film M again I've still got the original CV 15 finder sitting there waiting to be used.... As I got the Leica finder used for GBP 180 I feel pretty good about things.

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My WATE and finder arrived yesterday. The lens is a little narrower than I expected it to be ... but I'm impressed that the lens is as small as it is in size.

 

The frankenfinder is certainly quite a contraption. But, there is a sort of an awkward, geeky, over-engineered beauty to the device. As an added bonus, I'm happy that I'll be able to use the finder at 16 with the CV12. After, a few quick shots I agree with the point that Carsten made earlier that the framelines appear to be more accurate with the frankenfinder than any of the other framelines provided in the M8 viewfinder.

 

Guy, as you have noted, it might be wise for you to test out a finder if you can find one. Though it is a bit awkward at first, I'm thinking that an all-in-one finder solution for either or both the CV12, CV15 and the three WATE settings is very convenient. Plus, I really like the built in leveling bubble ... it's a nice touch.

 

My only dilema is that I just bought a 21asph to use for the summer because I wasn't certain whether or not I was going to receive the WATE before fall. So, now I need to put the 21asph (chrome, coded and LNIB if anyone is interested ;) ) up on the auction block.

 

Kurt

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I've been going back and forth between the old and new Leica multifinders on my WATE for a few days now.....no doubt that the Franken is accurate, clear, has room around the frame to see what you are missing....but dang, it isn't so much that it is heavy as that it is sitting up there at the top and its inertia really does make the M8 feel totally different.....so I use the old multifinder to keep the balanced feel that is really important to me as a part of photographing with a Leica. I've adapted pretty easily to the FOV of the old model and can be pretty accurate with it. In fact, I use the 24mm frame for the 28 mm (actual fov of 21mm) lens setting, and 16mm for the 24mm(actual fov of 18mm) setting, and those are pretty close to the actual FOV. At the wide end, I just leave it on the 21mm setting and look around in the finder just a bit to get the missing part of the frame, but it seems pretty close.

 

I'll keep the franken one, where total accuracy is crucial and handling is not important, I'll use it....but not as a carry thing

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Well something new to talk about and killing time waiting for a the rest of this project to hit my door in a hour and than I go 4 days without stopping on putting a program book together so anyway. i have the WATE and right now i have the Zeiss 21mm finder that i use for it and that covers the 16mm setting on the WATE but i just bought the Zeiss 25/28 also , i know for the price of two of them i could have bought the Frenkenfinder. But i am in mental dilemma . The 25/28 finder will be for the 18mm and 21mm setting which i use these settings a lot the 21mm the most. Normally i guess with the viewfinder for 21mm but i always leave the magnifer on so it really is a guess and real hard to see the full frame. now when i had the CV15mm i never even used a finder it was a P&S style. i think i may go back to that style with the WATE at 16mm. i figure if i can see the 18mm setting in the finder than that 2 degrees more i can just guess at it and the 18mm and 21mm will have precise framing which is more to my liking anyway. What i am hoping is for a little extra room on the 25/28 finder to maybe see what 16mm is doing but Daid Seelig pretty much said i am screwed there which is fine 16mm will be more guess work but 18 and 21 will be precise and I think overall will work better. i get the new 25/28 finder tomorrow and i will really test this theory out next week in NY but will keep the 21mm finder for now and see how it goes.

 

Now i bought the Zeiss finders although very expensive 350 each because they distort the least out of the other finders and really any interior work you don't want distortion because it is hard to line up. Now the Frankenfinder i only played with and it certainly is nice but i think later down the road I will get one unless i can steal one for cheap. Just some random thinking

Guy I have both Zeiss finders , the Frankenfinder and the WATE . My bias has always been that at typical distances ..the finders are conservative (like the M8) .. I think the Zeiss 21 is closer to the 18 FOV on the M8 . there is a little extra room around the frame which makes it easy to use for the 16mm . I aslo found with these lenses that it rare that a citical part of the image is right on the edge of the frame . Regardless if you want a more aggressive frame ..you can definately make the Zeiss 21 work for the 16 and 18 focal lengths. I even found that at 21mm I could easily estimate the frame . I also got a zeiss diopter from the ZM camera ..and it works great ...improved what I already thought was a bright clear viewfinder. The Zeiss 25/28 finder has I beleive a almost full frame for the 28mm and an corner frame for the 25mm . No extra room outside the 25mm ... I find the 28mm setting perfect for the 24mm..again my bias to have the frame represent true FOV at say 10 ft or more . My thinking has been that the 25mm frame would be perfect for the 21 setting on the WATE..but I probably will not change the finder . I can estimate the framing if I can see it . The Frankenfinder is a superb finder .but seems to be trying to cover too much ..resulting in a size issue. The finder is exceptionally bright..to my eye much brighter than the Leica 21 or 28mm finders . I only used it once but it doesn t seem to have the same magnification as the Zeiss and has some limited barrel distortion. Once on thencamera and in use I think you can make several different alternatives work. Using the external finder allows the use of the 1.25magnifier and the diopters to fine tune you critical focus. I continue to be amazed that you can see the actual point of focus even with the WATE ..can not see how zone focus can be acceptable unless you are highly skilled at it.
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I have both the Zeiss (25/28) viewfinder and the 'Frankenfinder'. Both have it's advantages. The latter is the best due to the excellent 'water pass' (libelle). This a vital thing to use if streight lines are important. I use the 'Frankenfinder' also on my Zeiss Ikon with the Zeiss 25 mm 2,8 - which draws streight lines - contrary to the WATE. I have also used the Frankenfinder on my Canon 1Ds II and 16-35 mm 2,8L II.

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Well the 25/28 finder just came in the mail from Popflash. Looks very nice indeed . Looks like a nice test is in order with the 21 finder also. Just going to have to work with this a bit and find a comfortable one to use. First i need to finish this project and get some sleep , I can barely focus dealing with all these numbers and photos . Doing a huge program book for a Model and Talent convention and it really is a ....ch of a job.

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That's why i did not buy it initially by the time you change the finder than the menu item than the lens , well the image is long gone or just bored to tears playing with all those controls. LOL

 

I think the Frankenfinder makes great sense to someone that either works off a tripod or time is not a big issue. Now i can feel Jono coming so let's see what he has to say. LOL

Err. . . . Cough . . . Me?

wot's a tripod?

and if you don't use filters, you can just forget about picking the focal length.

 

 

Stop messing about Guy - it isn't like you - the frankenfinder is the dog's doo-dahs, cut the wotsit and go get one.

 

zzzzzzzzz

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Olsen - thank you for posting that image. I agonised somewhat over which should be my first M8 lens, and whilst traditionally a 'wide' shooter, even the 30% off special deal couldn't eventually attract me to the WATE because of the hideous Frankenfinder, and the lack of a suitable alternative finder. By that I mean a finder with a built in spirit level, for me that is a pre-requisite for wide angle shooting.

 

I too considered the Zeiss finders for the WATE and rejected them as incomplete designs. I did not realise it at the time, but I guess I was spoilt by the finder on my Mamiya 7 super-wide 43 mm lens which has an accurate spirit bubble viewed in the finder, and variable diopter correction. I expect no less of Leica, and personally think the Frankenfinder is a shameful piece of crap design not worthy of production this side of 1945. I fully sympathise with Guy's dillemma, rangefinder shooting subjects on wide angles without a built in spirit level can be very problematic.

 

The picture with the Frankenfinder on top of the M8 reminds me I made the right decision forgoing the WATE; I chose the 24 instead, but the finder problem for my second [wide] lens will not go away.

 

.................Chris

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