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Issues with FW 2.0 and SF 64 Flash


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Hi all,

 

Today, I purchased an SF 64 flash.  I have already updated the SL to FW 2.0.  However, I am not getting the expected behaviour - or at least the way I would have expected the flash to work with the SL

 

1- In the A Priority Mode, the shutter speed is always fixed to 1/60 (this is because the I have flash slow speed synch set 1/f 60.  With this and the flash in TTL mode, part form the fact that you are stock with a shutter speed of 1/60 (or the maximum would be 1/125 if select this from the flash slow synch menu), the exposure is always set for the foreground.  Therefore, I am unable to use the flash for balanced exposure with the background (i.e. fill in flash).  Ideally, I would like to use the fill flash in A Priory mode up to the max flash synch speed supported by the SL (BTW, what is the speed?) for fill in flash photography, but at the moment I am unable to

 

2- When I set the camera to M, I can adjust the ambient exposure according to the metering scale - I can also check this through exposure simulation - and when the flash fires in TTL, generally, the exposure for both the foreground and the background is correct.  Now, this could work for me but there is catch - the ISO must be in AUTO ISO mode which pegs the ISO to 100.  If I manually set the ISO to anything over 100, the picture is overexposed.  I am guessing that this is because the flash TTL doesn't taken into account the ISO setting above 100?  The problem with this is if I am indoors and my subject is not completely static, using ISO 100 to expose for the background will given too slow a shutter speed to make my subject (e.g. a human model) freeze and any slight movement would blur the subject.  Will the flash freeze the foreground (i.e. my subject) to the degree that I any motion blur would be eliminated?

 

3- The flash exposure compensation in TTL mode can be only altered through the camera - doing so from the flash has no effect.  I am guessing the exposure compensation in the flash is only for the manual flash mode.  Is that correct?  If so, this is rather inconvenient.

 

Can someone please recommend the best possible method of fill-in flash photography both for low light situations as well as bright or sunny situations.

 

Thanks

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I don't yet have a SF64 (told yesteday Leica Australia has a two month wait). So I can only comment regarding the flashes I have (SF58, SF40, SF26). I use the SF58 extensively on my SL.

 

1. Flash sync speed is 1/250th plus HSS. If you have your sync set to 1/60th you should get 1/60th to 1/250th as available speeds and to 1/8000th with HSS set to on. I am able to do this with my SF58.

 

*Remember that once ambieny drops below the speed set in the slow shutter sync, exposure preview will stop working and you will get NO indication of background exposure, which is a HUGE flaw.

 

2. I am able to set any ISO manually in M mode (on camera) and use TTL flash successfully. I tested it up to ISO 800 just a few moments ago. You should get correct flash exposures above ISO 100. My SF58 works at all speeds and manual ISO settings that I have tried.

 

*Leica does switch off exposure preview in M mode (camera) with TTL flash, which is utterly stupid, although you can use the front fn button on a shot by shot basis. Also, although I rarely use it, there do appear to be some quirks with the SL and auto ISO that have not been fully resolved with the firmware update.

 

3. I was told that the SF64 allowed both FEC through the camera and flash, unlike the SF58 and 40, which are via the flash only. Now you can set FEC as a long press, you can bring up FEC very quickly. The reason I am looking at an SF64 is ONLY because it can set FEC through the camera. Setting FEC through Metz designed flashes has always been a slow PITA. I much prefer what you have. I have set the LR button to FEC in anticipation of getting my SF64.

 

I don't suppose this is much help but it does show that what you are seeing is not what other see with TTL flash. Maybe a polite email to Leica. I have done that for the old firmware and will be for this one as well.

 

Gordon

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Thanks for your response Gordon. It seems my experience with the SF64 is almost the opposite of yours with the SF58. For example, exposure preview is available at all ambient lighting conditions, even very low ones (e.g f2.8, 1/8 second).

 

I will try out the flash today, but in manual any ISO value above 100 will overexpose the photo.

 

With the SF64, set the exposure comp is very easy - I would say easier than using the camera menu.

 

Are you planning to get the SF64? If so, I would greatly appreciate it if you could report back on your findings and either confirm or dismiss my finding.

 

Regards,

 

Reza

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I don't want to be a bad messenger ... however it would appear that at least B&H New York store has stopped selling the SF 64 flash.

What does it tell us?

Check here.

 

And here is a screenshot from the website.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

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Hi Budfox.

 

Must admit I haven't read the SF40 instructions yet. I have the i40 in Fuji and Sony so felt I didn't need to. Maybe I should :)

 

However, I have tried this with my SF40 and "A" mode (flash) and it doesn't work for me. I can set it on the camera but like the SF40 it has no effect and reverts as soon as you try and confirm setting it.

 

I don't mind setting on the SF40 because of the direct wheel. It's just easier via the LR button if you don't want to remove the camera from your eye while shooting.

 

Gordon

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Gordon, on the SF-40 you can use in-camera FEC by setting the dial on the flash to A mode. According to the instructions the only difference between A mode and TTL mode on the SF-40 is on-flash vs in-camera FEC.

 

 

With R or M lenses and SF-40, FEC is not available at all in A flash mode. Neater in camera FEC or on the flash FEC. 

 

The in camera FEC only work in M flash mode, and the on flash FEC only in TTL mode.

 

With the SL Vario I don't know.

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Yes, your head starts to hurt from all those options and idiosyncrasies ... I shoot with the SF 40 on camera and decided to not worry about what works what not, just shoot, and in each situation try to get the best result one way or another. I guess I don't shoot weddings so don't have the extra stress and responsibility  :D

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Yes I tested it tonight - no in-camera FEC on A mode. I suppose A mode stops you accidentally setting an unwanted FEC.

 

 

The way the A mode on the SF-40 and the A mode on the SL work for the moment, I mean no FEC available, Auto-ISO blocked, no possibility to go under a fixed shutter speed (to be chosen in the internal menu) and no possibility to see or estimate the correct exposure in any way, make it in fact a priority to the flash mode in many low light situations or useless in many backlight situations.

 

In my experience, the only way to make reliable flash exposure or flash fill-in in whatever the light available is to put the SF-40 in TTL mode,  choose the FEC on the Flash FEC wheel, and on the SL in Manual mode to choose the suitable shutter speed and ISO manually.

 

I don't see any other way to be able to choose the FEC and any shutter speed and to see the exposure of the background and the chosen FEC on both the scales at the bottom of the EVF.

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What does it tell us?

 

 

 

Nothing. I still use the SF 64 as TTL and TTL-HSS flash, it works fine since FW 2.0 on SL and 1.1 on the flash. The only weakness is the low performance. GN 64 sounds good, but in comparison to Nikon and Canon it is not. You will see this extremely in HSS modus.

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Nothing. I still use the SF 64 as TTL and TTL-HSS flash, it works fine since FW 2.0 on SL and 1.1 on the flash. The only weakness is the low performance. GN 64 sounds good, but in comparison to Nikon and Canon it is not. You will see this extremely in HSS modus.

 

Actually it is. The SF64 is one of the most powerful hotshoe flashes. It just operates differently on the SL compared to a DSLR. Here's a tip I worked out a while back with another system.

 

Mirrorless and TTL flash meters a bit differently to a DSLR. In a DSLR the flash TTL sensor is in the camera body, like the AF system. In a mirrorless body everything meters off the sensor, including flash. A side effect of this is that fill flash, especially HSS TTL can underexpose, even when you use +3 FEC because the metering system doesn't really separate flash and ambient very well. It can seem like your flash is just low powered when what's happening is that the sensor is getting enough exposure and killing the flash early.

 

The trick is (this works on the SF58 and 64 but NOT the 40) to put the flash in A mode. On a DSLR or the M this would mean you'd end up setting the aperture manually into the flash and the flash would control it's own output based on what you told it to do but this doesn't happen in mirrorless.

 

The SF58 and 64 set to A mode and the SL set to A mode operates more like a DSLR in that the flash measurement is now removed from the camera sensor. In this case it'll move to the flashes inbuilt thyristor. BUT.....

 

ISO and` aperture information will still be passed from the camera to the flash automatically. You can just use the camera as normal and the flash will set whatever aperture you set in camera. You can also use FEC. What will happen is the camera now measures ambient and the thyristor measusres flash output but all exposure settings (except FEC) are done from the camera.

 

This tip is especially useful for properly exposing for backlit subjects which is where you are probably seeing most of your issues. I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised at the results. Give it a try.

 

Downsides? Well the flash thyrister measures about the angle of a 35mm lens and is an average measurement only. No fancy matrix flash metering (ambient will still be). But I've found it to be very consistent and predictable.

 

Also you'll now have no TTL pre exposure test or lag.

 

Gordon 

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The way the A mode on the SF-40 and the A mode on the SL work for the moment, I mean no FEC available, Auto-ISO blocked, no possibility to go under a fixed shutter speed (to be chosen in the internal menu) and no possibility to see or estimate the correct exposure in any way, make it in fact a priority to the flash mode in many low light situations or useless in many backlight situations.

 

In my experience, the only way to make reliable flash exposure or flash fill-in in whatever the light available is to put the SF-40 in TTL mode,  choose the FEC on the Flash FEC wheel, and on the SL in Manual mode to choose the suitable shutter speed and ISO manually.

 

I don't see any other way to be able to choose the FEC and any shutter speed and to see the exposure of the background and the chosen FEC on both the scales at the bottom of the EVF.

Pleas send your concerns to Leica. I've explained what's not right and they have made huge strides. But the more people who send an email to their importer or to Wetzlar the more they will start to see they have more work to do.

 

The lack of exposure preview in TTL flash and the way you can't turn off slow sync in Aperture Priority are HUGE mistakes by Leica.

 

I'll be sending my update email this week, for sure.

 

Gordon

Edited by FlashGordonPhotography
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Can someone please recommend the best possible method of fill-in flash photography both for low light situations as well as bright or sunny situations.

Hi maziatr,

if ever possible you should control the flash by the SL only. Fill in works in auto iso mode and in manual iso mode as well.

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The trick is (this works on the SF58 and 64 but NOT the 40) to put the flash in A mode. On a DSLR or the M this would mean you'd end up setting the aperture manually into the flash and the flash would control it's own output based on what you told it to do but this doesn't happen in mirrorless.

 

The SF58 and 64 set to A mode and the SL set to A mode operates more like a DSLR in that the flash measurement is now removed from the camera sensor. In this case it'll move to the flashes inbuilt thyristor. BUT.....

 

ISO and` aperture information will still be passed from the camera to the flash automatically. You can just use the camera as normal and the flash will set whatever aperture you set in camera. You can also use FEC. What will happen is the camera now measures ambient and the thyristor measusres flash output but all exposure settings (except FEC) are done from the camera.

 

 

 

I did try this when testing my new SF64 today.  I was shooting a backlit flower from about 80cm.  With A mode on the flash, with the FEC set to -3, I was still getting too much flash on the subject.

 

However, for the SF64, I don't think this approach is necessary.  Using TTL on the flash and any negative FEC setting, I was able to get a nice balance between the ambient light and the flash fill.

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  • 1 month later...

The SF64 has a GN of 24 at 35mm, 100 ASA. Nikons SB 910 has a GN of 34.

You posted the same thing on another more recent thread. I suspect you have the wrong source of data. The manual says GN 36 for the SF64.

I've added this post not to irritate you but just so no one is misled.

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