Archival Papers and Inks?

[david strachan]

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I've just been sorting some of my prints and found a lot of fading and/or extreme colour shifts...basically now completely unacceptable, and into the rubbish.  After just 3 years...I'm so disappointed.

 

I use an Epson R3000 and their Epson pigment inks.  Also Epson papers and Ilford papers, and their colour profiles.

I like printing in B&W but do colour as well to A3 and A3+ size.      

They are stored on my mapping table in low light and they never see direct sunlight.

 

Isn't this stuff meant to be reasonably archival ? Can someone help me please?

 

 

I'm looking at trying some  Hahnemuhle paper ...any good reports there?

In terms of tonal range and archival quality, is this a good brand.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

cheers  Dave S

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fotomas]

Hello Dave,

this sounds disturbing. At least with the Epson-papers it should last longer then 3 years, since they should know their stuff. Could you print a fresh one and show us a compare? What specific papers did you use?
I use Epson 3800 and 3880 and haven't experienced a noticeable fade in about 5 years till now. Guess the inks should be similar. And I normally don't use Epson papers (tried Tecco, Monochrom, Crane, Canson, Hahnemühle). One print on Crane Museo Silver Rag is exposed to light since 2010. Not no direct sunlight but fluorescent light about 10 hours a day in a frame with normal glass.

Cheers

Frank

 

 

 

[david strachan]

Thanks Frank.  Even my small prints pinned in my "Shed Office" show "bronzing" and bad fading.  Yes, same inks as yours.

 

When I wet printed in my darkroom, used to have a lot of problems with "bronzing" then Ilford admitted the mistake and promised improved paper longevity.  Well stupidly kept going with Multigrade...and now some of my exhibition prints are also bronzing badly. After just 10 years.

 

I just cannot believe all this.

 

thanks for your interest, cheers  Dave S

[sanyasi]

I have not had that problem with Hahnemuhle papers.  I primarily use Baryta, but have experimented with Photo Rag and Pearl.  I keep my prints in boxes, with each print in a plastic sleeve.  I've been printing for 7 or 8 years now.  Before Hahnemuhle, I used Moab papers.  Today I ordered sample packs for Canon, Moab, and Hahnemuhle.  

 

Sorry that you are having this problem.  Prints are expensive, and they should last well beyond 3 years.

[LocalHero1953]

A key issue in colour longevity is whether your papers have optical brighteners. If they do, then the paper will fade to a yellowy-cream even if your inks are pigment-based and archival.

 

Do you know if your papers were labelled "OBA-free" or similar?

 

If I print for the short term, I'll use RC papers with OBA, because they look brighter and punchier. For the long term I'll used fibre or rag papers with no OBAs.

[Jeff S]

Wilhelm Research is the expert archival tester.....and your experience is not in the same universe.  Here, for instance, are some numbers relating to the Epson 3880 (which uses the same Ultrachrome K3 ink set) and various Epson papers...   http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/ESP3880.html

 

You can search the Wilhelm site for hundreds of other tests and articles.

 

Jeff

[david strachan]

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Wilhelm Research is the expert archival tester.....and your experience is not in the same universe.  Here, for instance, are some numbers relating to the Epson 3880 (which uses the same Ultrachrome K3 ink set) and various Epson papers...   http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/ESP3880.html

 

You can search the Wilhelm site for hundreds of other tests and articles.

 

Jeff

Thanks for your input Jeff

I've had a read and some of the papers I've been using are in the tests.  Certainly my experience is unacceptable.  It is not a figment of my imagination either...my wife noticed immediately when I pulled out the prints.

At the moment I'm assuming a bad batch of inks and will reprint some of them again hoping for archiving.

 

After the archival promises made by Ilford for my Multigrade wet room experience.  I'm still a bit suspicious about archival testing....in those days they were so called rated for over 100 years as well.  (They were always washed very thoroughly by the way)

 

Frank, Jack and Paul...thank you for your pertinent  input also.

 

cheers  Dave S

[david strachan]

Here's what I mean. The back of the print says "Epson" so the paper, inks and printer should all be compatible...and should last far longer than 3 years.

 

The "bronzing", actually looks "silvering" when held at different angles to the light.  Also the print has faded overall, quite a bit.

 

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[almoore]

When I wet printed in my darkroom, used to have a lot of problems with "bronzing" then Ilford admitted the mistake and promised improved paper longevity.  Well stupidly kept going with Multigrade...and now some of my exhibition prints are also bronzing badly. After just 10 years.

 

This sounds more like a fixing/washing issue than anything else. Do you have any link to Ilford's admission of 'bronzing' being an issue with Multigrade?

 

I have Multigrade (both RC and fibre) prints from the 80s which show absolutely no signs of deterioration, just as I'd expect after fixing and washing them properly.

[david strachan]

This sounds more like a fixing/washing issue than anything else. Do you have any link to Ilford's admission of 'bronzing' being an issue with Multigrade?

 

I have Multigrade (both RC and fibre) prints from the 80s which show absolutely no signs of deterioration, just as I'd expect after fixing and washing them properly.

As said, my washing was right...and I don't have any reason to suspect my fixing...I always worked with fresh fixer.

 

Here's a link

http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?threads/what-causes-bronzing-degradation-of-a-silver-print.115367/

and here..

http://photo.net/black-and-white-photo-printing-finishing-forum/003Q1m

 

 

cheers  Dave S

[almoore]

As said, my washing was right...and I don't have any reason to suspect my fixing...I always worked with fresh fixer.

 

Here's a link

 

The first link is to a thread regarding Arista, rather than Ilford paper, and the second doesn't specify a brand.

 

I've never experienced or heard of Multigrade paper degrading if processed properly, so I was curious about Ilford's apparent admission that this was a known issue. Maybe there's something in the air in Adelaide, as both you and the guy at APUG appear to be based there.

[fotomas]

If I got it right you also have problems with bronzing on the analogue multigrade-paper. Then there could be a exposition with some oxidizing agents. This could be caused by a lot of things: chemicals, electric devices*, solvents, cleaners, varnish etc. I've got problems with silver-halide Orwo-baryt paper in the past. One way to provoke this was to leave the paper in contact with a newspaper for some days, but it also happened to other prints. Since I always work with two fixing-baths and a soda-wash aid I'm pretty sure that all these prints are washed out perfectly. Also did check this with a testing agent.
Orwo-paper was a warm tone paper, that is more prone to it. With Ilford Multigrade, that has a neutral tone, I never have such issues.
For that reason I later do a selen- or gold-toning on that paper. Then I never had an issue again. But the better way would be to remove the exposition of course and toning won't help with ink-jet papers.

If I remember it correctly Kodak offered test-stripes to detect such exposition in the past. Don't know if the still do.

Regards

Frank

*for example laser printers emit ozone.

 

[david strachan]

Almoore...if you look at the links there is a discussion by Ilford about the problem.  Yes, generally the discussions are about RC papers, but I can assure you they happened a lot with Ilford particularly...I was using them a lot.

I don't have a reference Ilford admitting it was a problem.  It was a time when I was reading photo magazines and the mention was probably in there somewhere.

 

Anyway I don't get your point really there is plenty of evidence that it has, and still does happen...eg not archival, full stop.

 

I did my printing in a country town in NSW, not here in Adelaide.

 

Frank, Yes, on pigment ink Epson Printer...see picture above on Epson printer here in Adelaide.

 

 

All agree though the archiving using selenium or sulphides was considered the answer.  I didn't like to use those much because they put a colour caste on one's prints. Gold toning was good, with v little colour caste but very expensive. 

 

 

Look the whole point is they say the prints are archival...they are not under normal use.  That is my experience anyway; both in dark room, and inkjet.  And I'm still seeing the problem on master prints, which I will have to do again.

 

I'll try some other paper.  It's all a big con this archival BS.

 

all best Dave S

[almoore]

Look the whole point is they say the prints are archival...they are not under normal use. That is my experience anyway; both in dark room, and inkjet. And I'm still seeing the problem on master prints, which I will have to do again.

 

I'll try some other paper. It's all a big con this archival BS.

Time will tell when it comes to inkjet prints, but, in general, I don't think that there's any big industry con. We know - despite your experiences - that very old black and white prints are holding up just fine.

 

Claims for longevity come with very strict guidelines on both processing and subsequent handling. Epson is very specific about which combinations of ink and paper they consider to be archival, so without knowing which paper was used it's difficult to say whether their claims have fallen short.

 

By the way, is that HCB in the faded inkjet?

[david strachan]

Yes,  HCB.  Looking like he's turning to silver....

[david strachan]

Yes, HCB.  Looking like he's turning to silver...

[sanyasi]

Something more to worry about.  I have removed the meat from my freezer and am now storing my prints there.  

 

i will ill be writing Hahnemuhle about this.  Doing some research on the web highlights the concern about OBAs.  Looks like you are safe with lots of matte papers, but I hate those.  I'll report back when I get an answer.

[Jeff S]

Strange....I've not had the least bit of fade for inkjet prints in storage or on walls for 7+ years so far.....typically using Ilford Gold Fibre Silk for color work.  No problem either with b/w prints using Canson, Hahnemuhle, Epson or other papers.  

 

Your faded print looks like one that would be generated with clogged nozzles.   Were the prints rich and luminous to start?   Were they allowed to thoroughly dry before storing or stacking?  Did your inks stand idle for an extended period before printing (and not shaken)?

 

Jeff

[sanyasi]

In looking at the Wilhelm report (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/dfa/42_produkte_digital_fineart_alterungsbestaendigkeit_wilhelm_imaging_research.pdf), a lot of popular Hahnemuhle papers are not listed.  It would have been nice to see the stats on those papers.

 

Based on this report (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/dfa/lne_longevity_test_dfa_collection-1.pdf) I will be switching to Baryta FB

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[Jeff S]

In looking at the Wilhelm report (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/dfa/42_produkte_digital_fineart_alterungsbestaendigkeit_wilhelm_imaging_research.pdf), a lot of popular Hahnemuhle papers are not listed.  It would have been nice to see the stats on those papers.

 

 

 

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/digital-fineart/longevity.html

 

Jeff