Elmar lenses on Nagel cameras

[Pecole]

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When arranging my "Photo" library, I opened a book I had even forgotten : "Zauber der Kamera. Beispiele aus dem Kodak-Nagel-Werk" ("Magic of the Camera. Samplings from the Kodak-Nagel-Work", I also have this short English-language translation/summary), authored by Helmut Nagel. This is a fascinating, totally illustrated and highly detailed catalog of all the cameras produced by this Kodak associated division. It reminded me that I had a Pupille with Leitz Elmar lens in my collection (I didn't find a photo now), and I went on looking for the models listed in the 1930s with Leitz lenses. I found no less than seven : would be an original theme for a collector !

Here is the list :

- Nagel Nr. 74 of 1930, with Elmar 4,5/12 cm

- Nagel Nr. 18 produced from 1928 to 1939 and sometimes offered with the same 12 cm Elmar

- Nagel Nr. 33, same production dates and same lens possibility

- Nagel Fornidar Nr. 30, 1930-31, also available with the 12 cm Elmar

- Nagel Vollenda, 1930-34, always with the 12 cm Elmar

- Nagel Pupille, available from 1931 to 1935 with the Elmar 3,5/5cm

- Nagel Vollenda Nr. 48, 1931-37, also with the 5 cm Elmar.

[alan mcfall]

You start a post that I find most interesting.  I have long believed that Leitz set aside the serial number allocation from 100,000 to 119,999 for the use of lenses they made for fitting on other manufactures cameras.  I have recorded over 80 serials in this range and they are all on non-leitz cameras, primarily Nagel as you mention. Most are 50/3.5 Elmar lenses but others also exist.

The earliest is serial 100,103 which is a 105/4.5 Elmar.  The highest is 113,934 which is a 50 Elmar on a Welti camera.  Only on the rarest(none recorded)  of occasions have I seen a leitz lens between 114,000 and 119,999.

 

Some interesting cameras are:

 

100122  a 135/4.5 Recomar,     so is 100156  100338   100522   100558 and 100560   I believe the Recomar was one of the first cameras, perhaps the very first that Leitz provided lenses for.

100673 my camera with 50/3.5 Elmar on Nagel Puppille

100991 my camera with 135/4.5 Elmar on Nagel

102453 my camera with 105/4.5 Elmar on Librette camera

107228 my camera with 50/3.5 Elmar on Nagel Vollenda camera

108254 my camera with 50/3.5 Elmar on Nagel

111475 50/3.5 Elmar on Dreiver camera

 

Again, I do not have a recording between 113934 and 119999, suggesting that the production of Leitz lenses for other camera makers did not significantly exceed 14000 lenses.

 

I will post photos of my cameras if there is interest. And as always, additional data is welcome, and with Leitz the exception is the norm.

 

Regards

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[luigi bertolotti]

You start a post that I find most interesting.  I have long believed that Leitz set aside the serial number allocation from 100,000 to 119,999 for the use of lenses they made for fitting on other manufactures cameras.  I have recorded over 80 serials in this range and they are all on non-leitz cameras, primarily Nagel as you mention. Most are 50/3.5 Elmar lenses but others also exist.

The earliest is serial 100,103 which is a 105/4.5 Elmar.  The highest is 113,934 which is a 50 Elmar on a Welti camera.  Only on the rarest(none recorded)  of occasions have I seen a leitz lens between 114,000 and 119,999.

 

Some interesting cameras are:

 

100122  a 135/4.5 Recomar,     so is 100156  100338   100522   100558 and 100560   I believe the Recomar was one of the first cameras, perhaps the very first that Leitz provided lenses for.

100673 my camera with 50/3.5 Elmar on Nagel Puppille

100991 my camera with 135/4.5 Elmar on Nagel

102453 my camera with 105/4.5 Elmar on Librette camera

107228 my camera with 50/3.5 Elmar on Nagel Vollenda camera

108254 my camera with 50/3.5 Elmar on Nagel

111475 50/3.5 Elmar on Dreiver camera

 

Again, I do not have a recording between 113934 and 119999, suggesting that the production of Leitz lenses for other camera makers did not significantly exceed 14000 lenses.

 

I will post photos of my cameras if there is interest. And as always, additional data is welcome, and with Leitz the exception is the norm.

 

Regards

 What is this Dreiver Camera ? Recomar, Librette and Nagel are from the same breed... but I think to have never heard the brand name "Dreiver"....

[Pecole]

 What is this Dreiver Camera ? Recomar, Librette and Nagel are from the same breed... but I think to have never heard the brand name "Dreiver"....

 

And here are photos -finally found - of "my" Nagel Pupille with Elmar 5cm nº 111145. And many thanks to Alan and Luigi for providing so many information : so, there are collectors looking for Leitz lenses on other brands cameras!

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[Pecole]

Curious, how an - old - brain is working! Immediately after publishing the photos of "my" Pupille with Elmar lens, I reminded I used to have another one in my collection, as well as a Leitz Canada lens on a different brand camera. And this time, I found the photos without difficulty.

First two photos are of another, older Nagel Pupille with Elmar 5cm nº 105104 and ever-ready case.

The two following of an aerial camera Maurer KS-28B with ELCAN 6 in. f/2.8 lens I had discovered when serving as a captain in the Belgian Air Force, and that I later acquired.

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[Antonio Madureira]

 

And here are photos -finally found - of "my" Nagel Pupille with Elmar 5cm nº 111145. And many thanks to Alan and Luigi for providing so many information : so, there are collectors looking for Leitz lenses on other brands cameras!

 

 

Curious, how an - old - brain is working! Immediately after publishing the photos of "my" Pupille with Elmar lens, I reminded I used to have another one in my collection, as well as a Leitz Canada lens on a different brand camera. And this time, I found the photos without difficulty.

First two photos are of another, older Nagel Pupille with Elmar 5cm nº 105104 and ever-ready case.

The two following of an aerial camera Maurer KS-28B with ELCAN 6 in. f/2.8 lens I had discovered when serving as a captain in the Belgian Air Force, and that I later acquired.

Dear Pierre can I, very respectfully, sugest that your first attached photo is a Nagel Wollenda ( 3x4 on 127 film, folding camera) and the Nagel Pupille is the second one? 

Btw I have a little Wollenda with another lens, Tessar if I can remember.

Best regards.

Antonio

[volker_hack]

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 What is this Dreiver Camera ? Recomar, Librette and Nagel are from the same breed... but I think to have never heard the brand name "Dreiver"....

 

Possibly it is a Mentor "Dreivier" (="three four") camera, contemporary to the Nagel Pupille, Zeiss Ikon Kolibri, Foth Derby and others, from the time when some companys thought the Rollfilm No.127 was a better alternative than the 35mm film format.     

[jerzy]

I have long believed that Leitz set aside the serial number allocation from 100,000 to 119,999 for the use of lenses they made for fitting on other manufactures cameras. 

on top of that, in regard to Elmar 50/3,5 there was a batch of approx 500 lenses (SNs195500-196000) mounted on Welta Weltini II.

Drop me a PM if you are interested in SNs between 113934 and 119999

[luigi bertolotti]

Possibly it is a Mentor "Dreivier" (="three four") camera, contemporary to the Nagel Pupille, Zeiss Ikon Kolibri, Foth Derby and others, from the time when some companys thought the Rollfilm No.127 was a better alternative than the 35mm film format.     

Yup...  you are spot on :

 

"The Mentor Dreivier (German: three-four) is a viewfinder camera for 3x4 cm pictures on 127 rollfilm, made by Mentor (Goltz & Breutmann) in Dresden in about 1930. It is probably the smallest camera made by Mentor, who were better known for box-form SLR cameras. The few examples seen at Westlicht all have either an f/3.5 or f/4.5 CZJ Tessar and a Compur shutter to 1/300 second, with helical scale-focusing to about 1 metre.^[1][2][3] The camera was also available with an f/2.8 Tessar, or a Leitz f/3.5 Elmar^[4] or f/2.5 Hektor^[5] or Elmax.^[6]"

 

^{< Camerapedia>}

Edited March 1, 2016 by luigi bertolotti

[250swb]

If it is of any help to the database my Kodak Vollenda 6x9 has the 105mm Elmar 4.5 serial #113473 mounted on the Kodak Compur shutter.

 

 

Steve

[Pecole]

 

Dear Pierre can I, very respectfully, sugest that your first attached photo is a Nagel Wollenda ( 3x4 on 127 film, folding camera) and the Nagel Pupille is the second one? 

Btw I have a little Wollenda with another lens, Tessar if I can remember.

Best regards.

Antonio

 

 

Impressionado por o seu - evidentemente imerecido - respeito, caro Antonio...I totally agree and apologize, invoking again the excuse of my aging brain : my first photos are indeed of a Nagel Vollenda, not a Pupille. The Vollenda Nr.48 was available with three or four different lenses, including the Zeiss Tessar.

(Se você passa por Faro, moro perto : deixa saber, sff)

[dkCambridgeshire]

A few 'old' pics of mine:

 

A Nagel 74 6x9 folding roll film camera with a leitz Elmar 10.5cm f4.5 lens and Compur 1sec. - 1/300 + B&T ... no model name visible , no rangefinder , no lens movements but McKeown shows "LIBRETTE" as being model number 74 .. but makes no mention of Leitz Elmar variant. This 74 has folding wire frame 'sports finder' as well as the optical finder.

 

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dunk

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2016 by dkCambridgeshire

[alan mcfall]

Photos of my Nagel's, Volenda, Pupille, and Librette.  All with Leitz lenses.  The Librette is the large camera in the middle and Librette is clearly embossed in the Leather at the top . It also has both the optical and wire frame finder.  As an aside, the small nickel two post foot used to mount the Leitz rangefinder (marked "N" of course) is quite hard to find.

Also many thanks to Volker for the note on the Mentor Dreivier.  I had forgotten the source.  Regards.

 

 

 

 

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[Pecole]

Photos of my Nagel's, Volenda, Pupille, and Librette.  All with Leitz lenses.  The Librette is the large camera in the middle and Librette is clearly embossed in the Leather at the top . It also has both the optical and wire frame finder.  As an aside, the small nickel two post foot used to mount the Leitz rangefinder (marked "N" of course) is quite hard to find.

Also many thanks to Volker for the note on the Mentor Dreivier.  I had forgotten the source.  Regards.

 

 

 

 

IMG_0144.JPGIMG_0145.JPG

 

When seeing the pixes published by DK..., I remembered I had had a Nagel 74 too. After long looking through the thousands - unarranged, and sometimes even not captioned - photographs I digitized after reforming, I finally came along the one hereunder, showing the Elmar 10,5 cm nº104472 of the camera. And since my search also resulted in the "re-discovery" of photos of a Nagel Pupille set with Elmar 5 cm I also had, complete with the FOFER engraved "N", they are also included. To be noted that the Pupille is the relatively rare so-called "French speaking" version with the French engraved setting disc.

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[Chris Clarke]

On 2/29/2016 at 6:29 PM, alan mcfall said:

You start a post that I find most interesting.  I have long believed that Leitz set aside the serial number allocation from 100,000 to 119,999 for the use of lenses they made for fitting on other manufactures cameras.  I have recorded over 80 serials in this range and they are all on non-leitz cameras, primarily Nagel as you mention. Most are 50/3.5 Elmar lenses but others also exist.

The earliest is serial 100,103 which is a 105/4.5 Elmar.  The highest is 113,934 which is a 50 Elmar on a Welti camera.  Only on the rarest(none recorded)  of occasions have I seen a leitz lens between 114,000 and 119,999.

 

Some interesting cameras are:

 

100122  a 135/4.5 Recomar,     so is 100156  100338   100522   100558 and 100560   I believe the Recomar was one of the first cameras, perhaps the very first that Leitz provided lenses for.

100673 my camera with 50/3.5 Elmar on Nagel Puppille

100991 my camera with 135/4.5 Elmar on Nagel

102453 my camera with 105/4.5 Elmar on Librette camera

107228 my camera with 50/3.5 Elmar on Nagel Vollenda camera

108254 my camera with 50/3.5 Elmar on Nagel

111475 50/3.5 Elmar on Dreiver camera

 

Again, I do not have a recording between 113934 and 119999, suggesting that the production of Leitz lenses for other camera makers did not significantly exceed 14000 lenses.

 

I will post photos of my cameras if there is interest. And as always, additional data is welcome, and with Leitz the exception is the norm.

 

Regards

For info

I picked up a Vollenda last week. Elmar No. 104847

[willeica]

9 hours ago, Chris Clarke said:

For info

I picked up a Vollenda last week. Elmar No. 104847

I have a Vollenda and two Pupilles with Leitz Elmar lenses. The serial numbers of these lenses are in the ranges of lenses supplied to Nagel which are listed in Hartmut Thiele's book on Leitz  lenses.  I also have examples of those cameras with Schneider lenses. The focus arrangement varies on the Vollenda according to the lens make.  The Leitz version racks in and out whereas the Schneider version has a rotating lens. One of the Vollendas and one of the Pupilles have Kodak markings, showing that they were made after Nagel was taken over by Kodak . Some of the Nagel parts, e.g. depth of field scale, appear in modified designs on later Kodak Retina models. 

I have an example of the Leitz 10.5cm Elmar which was produced for the Nagel Recomar. Photos below. 

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Dr August Nagel was a true giant of the German photographic industry, who often does not get the recognition which he deserves. He produced lovely Contessa cameras prior to selling the firm to Zeiss, but his true masterpiece was the disposable 35mm film cassette produced for the Kodak Retina.

William