The unthinkable?: switching from Vuescan to Silverfast

[frame-it]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

i found it here

 

https://www.iamthejeff.com/post/32/the-best-way-to-color-correct-c-41-negative-film-scans

[wlaidlaw]

That is by far the best action I have found for converting colour negatives. They are quite good enough for a few tweaks on PS to make them totally usable. I have recently bought a few rolls of Superia 1600 to use on the Sussex bonfire parades this autumn with my M7 and 0.95 Noctilux and I had assumed I would need to get them scanned when processing but now with that action, happy to do them myself. With a bit of luck Nissin may have also released the MG10 hammerhead flash by then with software which will talk to the Leica SFC-1 flash controller. 

 

Wilson

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[frame-it]

im also thinking of using my 5D-SR 51MP+lightbox to scan some negs..hence the research

[wlaidlaw]

It is such a fast way of working. I reckon I can scan a whole 36 exposure film in 2 minutes, straight to RAW with the SL, every image in perfect focus and exposure. If I am doing a few films, I can connect my SL to an MBP with the HDMI mini to USB-3 cable but in reality it is just as easy to pop out the SD card which I then plug in to my Ansbell multi-port dock, for my "Thunderbolt ports only" MBP. The Ansbell dock has twin T3  output plugs on its side, which plug direct into the side of the latest type MBP and has a charge through facility. Sadly one of the T3 ports on the LHS of my MBP has died so I can only use the Ansbell, other than just charging, on the RHS of my MBP, which is not my preferred side. 

 

Wilson

Edited July 22, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[Martin B]

i found it here

 

https://www.iamthejeff.com/post/32/the-best-way-to-color-correct-c-41-negative-film-scans

 

Thanks for the link - I admit that I have never used "Actions" in PS before, and I still use CS6. Can somebody please tell me step-by-step how to use this tool? I don't see it listed in my filter menu after I clicked on the downloaded link (not sure what happened after I clicked on it). 

[frame-it]

https://gettotallyrad.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200860375-Installing-Your-Photoshop-Actions

 

 

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/-YczMOmr8V0?t=51s

 

 

Thanks for the link - I admit that I have never used "Actions" in PS before, and I still use CS6. Can somebody please tell me step-by-step how to use this tool? I don't see it listed in my filter menu after I clicked on the downloaded link (not sure what happened after I clicked on it). 

Edited July 22, 2018 by frame-it

[wlaidlaw]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

There are a number of Youtube videos on loading and using actions. In the later PS versions, they automatically load into the correct location, after you have "loaded" the action from the pull down menu found at the top right hand corner of the Actions dialog box. The only thing that is sometimes a bit odd is to find the name and sometimes the folder your new loaded action has been saved under. For example the action to convert colour negative to positive is to be found under "film editing/color correct". When I used to teach Photoshop in the dim distant past, I found actions along with layer masks were amongst the least understood elements of Photoshop. 

 

Wilson

[Martin B]

https://gettotallyrad.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200860375-Installing-Your-Photoshop-Actions

 

 

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/-YczMOmr8V0?t=51s

 

 

Thanks - this was at least a bit of help. Personally, I dislike video instructions - the part which I actually need is often not well mentioned, and it takes an awful lot of time to go through the other (unnecessary) stuff. I still prefer a written step-by-step procedure - nowadays harder and harder to find because people have become too lazy to type (and video on Youtube brings a lot more "hits" and potentially money). 

[Martin B]

There are a number of Youtube videos on loading and using actions. In the later PS versions, they automatically load into the correct location, after you have "loaded" the action from the pull down menu found at the top right hand corner of the Actions dialog box. The only thing that is sometimes a bit odd is to find the name and sometimes the folder your new loaded action has been saved under. For example the action to convert colour negative to positive is to be found under "film editing/color correct". When I used to teach Photoshop in the dim distant past, I found actions along with layer masks were amongst the least understood elements of Photoshop. 

 

Wilson

 

I never attended a PS class, and I likely use PS only up to 5% of its capabilities. Always hated the layer mask designs in PS - never wanted to deal with them. And I never needed to since I do all my PP either with Nik software or the scanned photo only requires cropping, highlight/contrast adjustment, maybe a bit of saturation adjustments. So the move to another third party software other than PS in the future won't be a big deal for me either - maybe even an improvement if the layer processing flow goes away. 

[jaapv]

I must disagree here, Martin. Layers are one of the powerful features of Photoshop, and miles ahead of the competition. It is well worth honing your skills in that respect.

My opinion of Nik is a bit opposite yours - I always found the results of the plugin somewhat regurgitated.

[WideAngle]

Comparing VueScan and SilverFast is easy, if you don't mind running trial software, or buying both.

 

But for each of them, support and presentation makes a poor impression.  For instance, the SilverFast forum produces a dialog box asking for a username and password, with the message 'The site says: “Forum temporaly closed by the Webmaster”'.  Will the webmaster ever open the forum?  (The dialog box was semi-modal: I could click on other windows, but not on other tabs in Firefox.  Does this tell us something about corporate culture?)

 

And these:

https://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/specific_search/VueScan
https://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/specific_search/silverfast
http://www.snowhenge.net/pblog/article/Why_is_Vuescan_struggling

 

 

[Martin B]

I must disagree here, Martin. Layers are one of the powerful features of Photoshop, and miles ahead of the competition. It is well worth honing your skills in that respect.

My opinion of Nik is a bit opposite yours - I always found the results of the plugin somewhat regurgitated.

 

There is no right or wrong - it is very much personal preference. Good thing is that PS offers the features - it's up to the user how much to make use of each of them. I believe layers are an absolute must for graphic designers or when more PP is required - for portraits for example when backgrounds need to be changed or adjusted, for skin and shadow changes etc. These are all things I never have to deal with in my sort of photography. I focus a lot on B&W PP, and Nik Silver Efex and Viveza are my most often used filter packages here (mostly apply these for my digital infrared PP). For film, things are a lot easier - just simple level and curve adjustment suffices in B&W, for color film sometimes a bit channel saturation iof needed. No need to use layers at all here.....simple. 

[thebarnman]

I don't know how we got into this topic, but when it comes to layers; I've never liked them either.  I've mostly just worked on a images with all of these adjustments just mentioned like skin, shadow change, light changes, color changes etc. without making a layer for each.  Yea; I know that's destructive with the only way to go back and fix something is by going back into the history, but I guess I've been lucky.  Maybe I'll give layers a try one day.  Lately however I've been doing post work with images that really don't need most of those kind of adjustment, and have been doing most of that work in Lightroom which I feel makes It a easier workflow with all the tools much more easily assessable.   

[frame-it]

https://gettotallyrad.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200860375-Installing-Your-Photoshop-Actions

 

has the basic steps

Thanks - this was at least a bit of help. Personally, I dislike video instructions - the part which I actually need is often not well mentioned, and it takes an awful lot of time to go through the other (unnecessary) stuff. I still prefer a written step-by-step procedure - nowadays harder and harder to find because people have become too lazy to type (and video on Youtube brings a lot more "hits" and potentially money). 

[Jossie]

Hello,

 

let me come back to the original topic of this thread. I read through the posts and what I read, besides critics on the GUIs (matter of taste) and the pricing policy (vast difference between VS and SF) I do not see any specific facts, which make the two programs differ. To a certain degree it is also a matter of taste, if you like the results from VS, SF or from ColorPerfect better.

 

However, there are basic differences between VueScan and SilverFast in the most important algorithms! For me these are colour management and removal of scratches and dust. Since about 80% of my slides are Kodachrome, I also have a strong emphasize on correct treatment here. In connection with my Volkshochschul-courses I have summarized my experience with SilverFast. This document can also be used as a brief guide to SF, albeit it is in German.

 

In brief, the colour management of VS is very simple only, some call it fake: http://www.filmscanner.biz/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28931#p33436 . It understands and creates only matrix profiles. Using VS to apply the profile created with VS for Kodachrome gives a serious red cast to all images, thus it is unusable for me. The dust and scratch removal is, what others call basic: https://discuss.pixls.us/t/rawtherapee-vs-darktable-invert-scanned-b-w-negatives/3036/37. For Kodachrome it corrects in all dark parts of the image not only at defects. This seriously degrades contrast in dark parts. For both, the algorithms in SF are much better. On the other hand, the reduction of grain noise (GANE) does not work at all in SF. Also the NegaFix expert part has serious problems in SF.

 

Hermann-Josef

[raphael]

something like this ?

 

 

https://www.iamthejeff.com/files/Film%20Editing.atn

 

What is this? It downloads a binary file?!

[wlaidlaw]

It is a Photoshop Action. Read back through the last page to explain how to use it. 

 

Wilson

[Diogenes]

On 7/22/2018 at 1:23 PM, WideAngle said:

Comparing VueScan and SilverFast is easy, if you don't mind running trial software, or buying both.

 

 

 

I just stumbled on this thread, and read through the entire thing. If I might offer some purely personal reflections based upon a decade or so of using scanning software from both companies with a Nikonscan 9000:

*No, comparing  Vuescan and Silverfast is definitely not as easy as running trial software, or just buying both, mostly because the learning curve of Silverfast is so steep that most people fall off before they ever come close to understanding how to get the excellent results which are possible with Silverfast. If you understand how to use Silverfast, the differences between the files you can get from it and from Vuescan are far from the subtle or small others here have been describing. 

*The general tone of the comments here has been pretty accurate in some other ways, though. Ed Hamrick is great and Vuescan is by far the better bargain. I must admit I found comments on the “outrageous”  cost of Silverfast to be pretty amusing on a Leica forum. . Silverfast, especially the version that you actually need if you are going to have a meaningful discussion about which is the “best” scanning software, is quite expensive. The version needed to have this discussion is the Silverfast 8 Archive Suite HDR version, which is two completely separate programs, a scanning program and a proprietary processing program. The SE version of Silverfast, compared to Vuescan, that’s a tossup. The Archive Suite HDR version, not so much, it’s just better .  Vuescan is much more user friendly and intuitive to use, thus easier to get everything out of it that it is capable of. Silverfast, on the other hand, was for me the least intuitive software program I had ever used, still is. I stuck with it for literally years of WTF! moments mostly because once financially invested in it, I would not quit trying even when it seemed futile. Vuescan customer support is better, though I have come to wonder if Silverfast even has any native English speakers associated with the company. Yes, they speak English, but sometimes it almost seems like it is in code, or most often, when you get an answer to something you are looking for on their web site, the answer assumes you already know way more than you really do, because the videos and other “help” on the Silverfast only make perfect instant sense to someone who is already fully competent in using the software. After shelling out a lot of money for the entire Suite, I haven’t paid a penny for frequent updates in years, and have made peace with customer support by adjusting my expectations. It’s enough.  I have said that you can get better scans from Silverfast than from Vuescan, but doing that by merely futzing around with trial versions, or just buying the software and futzing around with that and thinking you will quickly get up to speed with it; I doubt it. You need to buy Mark Segal’s book, and read it. There’s a reason it’s 600 or so pages long. Someone not willing to so that would be judicious to avoid going on internet forums and saying you “tried” Silverfast and it wasn’t that good. People tend to believe they tried it, they “think” they tried it, they’re sure they tried it, but maybe they should be less sure. Just saying.

*I have had, over the years, discussions/arguments with professional and advanced amateur photographers about Vuescan vs. Silverfast. Regardless of how long someone had been a professional, or how wildly successful they had been at it,  the ones who either didn’t find much difference or preferred the results from Vuescan were similar to many of the comments I have seen in this thread; it was obvious they didn’t know how to use Silverfast, not really, (which, given the learning curve, is more than understandable). It’s like they are standing on the ground floor of a sixty story building, most of them, and complaining about the view, which they found to be not so hot. Don’t get me wrong, Vuescan is great, and Ed Hamrick is a blessing, but the softwares are not “the same.” And, yes, I read and understood the  Vuesoft  book too.

*This post is all I am going to say on the subject. Trying to answer specific “how to” questions would not be helpful, because there is a good reason that the manual is as long as it is. It can’t be explained in a forum thread. Short version: Buy the entire Silverfast 8 Ai Archive HDR Suite, scan anything important in their 64bit HDRi RAW mode, and process those resulting (proprietary, not your mother’s RAW file) files in the separate Silverfast HDR software (an unfortunate name as it is not about HDR images as most people visualize those), and you will end up with some extremely rich and pliable files you can take to Photoshop and deal with to your heart’s content. If that sounds like too much trouble, maybe it is, but I would never go back to doing it any other way. Personally.

[WideAngle]

Thanks!

Setting expectations is among the most important preparations for using any tool.

Re: " If that sounds like too much trouble, ..."  At my age of 75, anything that requires more than 10 minutes is too much trouble!  I'm thinking SilverFast is for young people.

I'm using Vuescan, partly because of price.  And there are issues, e.g. I haven't figured out how to get color balance in one of my scans to be the same as EpsonScan's.

For support, the direct line to Ed Hamrick seems a good idea, but overall that is not good.  Does he answer the same question thousands of times?  Vuescan needs a user forum.  Hunting down assistance from users sprinkled among numerous forums is silly.  Case in point: we are discussing Vuescan in this Leica forum.

 

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Jossie]

@Diogenes

I will not repeat my comments from above. SilverFast provides better results than VueScan and to my experience, it is easier to use due to its graphic user interface.

However, there is no documentation. The book by Segal is not a solution (I have not bought it because with software in this price category it is mandatory to supply also a decent manual). However, I just wonder, what Segal writes about film grain reduction (GANE in SF terminology), which is absolutely not working in SF, just to give one example. And there are other problems with SF, e.g. the NegaFix expert dialog is not working.

Most annoying with my scanner (DigitDia6000) for both, VueScan and SilverFast, is the fact that the raw scans still contain the CCD's bias on the order of about 600. This severely reduces the contrast in dark areas, and it ruins the multi-exposure in SF, since it distorts the brightness ratios in the images. Neither LSI nor EH are willing to change this.

Still, the results with SF are better than with VS ...

Hermann-Josef