Why does it make any sense at all to use non-professional grade film stocks in this day and age???

[Einst_Stein]

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12 hours ago, A miller said:

Well, to answer your first question, you would use film in order to take amazing photographs.

As to your pro vs non-pro question of relevance, I would refer you to the thesis articulated in my very first post in this thread, as amplified and further fleshed out in the additional posts on this topics that I made in this thread.  It is quite cogent and so I highly commend it to you.  

We can then discuss this in more detail if you'd like.

digital camera can not take amazing photographs? Amazing!

Do you know today non-professional films are no inferior to lots of professional films in the history in the film industry’s standard? What an expensive professional film can do in the past the modern cheap film can do better.

If you have problems to take amazing photographs with a film or a camera, the problem is always in your photography capability. Do not blame the film or the camera as your excuse.

if you have problems to take amazing photographs with a film or a camera, do not waste your time here attacking the film or the camera. Go home shoot more, and more, and more, and more. 

The problem is always in your brain.

 

 

[A miller]

35 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

digital camera can not take amazing photographs? Amazing!

Do you know today non-professional films are no inferior to lots of professional films in the history in the film industry’s standard? What an expensive professional film can do in the past the modern cheap film can do better.

If you have problems to take amazing photographs with a film or a camera, the problem is always in your photography capability. Do not blame the film or the camera as your excuse.

if you have problems to take amazing photographs with a film or a camera, do not waste your time here attacking the film or the camera. Go home shoot more, and more, and more, and more. 

The problem is always in your brain.

 

 

To level-set, I am talking about serious photography and not mere snaps.  For me, the cost and time involved with a serious film photography workflow really demands a film stock that is consistent, clean (not from a grain perspective but also its inherent chemical structure that manifests itself in smooth color representations etc), scans well and balanced in its colors.  I generally don't find this with non-pro film stocks.  So I stick with the pro-grade stocks, and don't really ever feel that I am missing out on anything.  

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[earleygallery]

7 minutes ago, A miller said:

To level-set, I am talking about serious photography and not mere snaps.  For me, the cost and time involved with a serious film photography workflow really demands a film stock that is consistent, clean (not from a grain perspective but also its inherent chemical structure that manifests itself in smooth color representations etc), scans well and balanced in its colors.  I generally don't find this with non-pro film stocks.  So I stick with the pro-grade stocks, and don't really ever feel that I am missing out on anything.  

I'm sure I replied previously to this thread. Whatever works for you is great, but I'm not sure that you really understand what 'pro' film means.

[A miller]

34 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

I'm sure I replied previously to this thread. Whatever works for you is great, but I'm not sure that you really understand what 'pro' film means.

I think i shoot enough film to be able to have a respectable opinion on this, Earl.  You are free to disagree and then provide some reasons supporting your opinion, with specific examples if you have.  But let’s not be demeaning - fair?

Edited February 9, 2020 by A miller

[ShivaYash]

Can’t believe this thread. Miller, give it a rest. 

[A miller]

1 minute ago, ShivaYash said:

Can’t believe this thread. Miller, give it a rest. 

Me?   You love it and you know it. 

[Einst_Stein]

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Miller, this thread was started four years ago. You spend four years on this thread to repeat your murmuring? 

Amazing!  

Take people's advise, use your time smartly. Just try to learn how to shoot the "cheap non-professional films".

Many people use it and produce amazingly beautiful pictures.  I am sure you can too. 

[A miller]

1 minute ago, Einst_Stein said:

Miller, this thread was started four years ago. You spend four years on this thread to repeat your murmuring? 

Amazing!  

Take people's advise, use your time smartly. Just try to learn how to shoot the "cheap non-professional films".

Many people use it and produce amazingly beautiful pictures.  I am sure you can too. 

It is a fun thread when people actually discuss the topic in an earnest way.  It is also fun to poke around at people who like to troll... 

i bought a bunch of rolls of Kodak Color Plus for my street shooting this winter season.  They are all still sitting in my frig. I can’t bring myself to use it and instead reach for the portra every time.  

For larger formats i am even more wedded to the pro stocks.  

i tried all of the varieties of the “dubble film” films last spring at the dead sea in Israel. https://dubblefilm.com Boy was that a mistake!!  A total colossal waste of time, money and an opportunity!

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[Geoff Marshall]

On 2/19/2016 at 10:45 PM, Michael Hiles said:

Hi Adam.

 

Thanks for this. I don't own any Leica digital cameras. My wife has a now oldish Nikon p&s, which I occasionally use when I want to see results instantly for some reason.

 

The 2-3 advantages digital camera offer mainly don't mean much to me. I am much more interested in honing my skills as a printer. I continue to be mesmerized by a silver rich B&W print, and I continue to be happy with the quality of the negatives I can make (usually on XP2). I am also interested and focused on B&W photography. I am much impressed by good colour photography, but I don't feel that a photograph is by definition better in colour. In fact I think B&W and Colour photography are completely different media - and for he last 20 or so years I have concentrated on B&W. 

 

I also have a minor and non-crucial niggle with Leica's digital M cameras. I like the wonderful viewfinder in my M3 and I am quite satisfied with the .72 viewfinder in my M2. The .68 viewfinder in the digital Ms is going in the wrong direction for me. A purely personal opinion. Back before the M8, I thought I would be tickled with a replacement digital back for my M3 and M2, a little like a mini version of the DMR unit - but that was always a pipe dream.

 

I have a working darkroom that gets used 8-8 times per year. I like the process and challenge of making a silver gelatin print and getting it better and better. And then dry mounting, matting and framing it (it is important to get to a finished show-able picture). I understand about imaging software - I use PSE and SIlverEfex Pro to play with images before making a silver print. But what I get from a negative in my focomat 1c projected onto Ilford Multigrade paper continues to generate both joy and prints that cannot be duplicated nor replaced, I believe.

 

I should have begun with "Don't get me started" - too late,

I’ve always preferred the look of a traditional black and white wet print over the results from a computer printer, even after spending a decent amount of money on a highly rated photo  printer. I also like the process involved in making a print, dodging and burning various areas to get the result I am happy with, it may be time consuming but for me the end result is always more pleasing to the eye. 

[gbealnz]

On 2/10/2020 at 8:37 AM, A miller said:

It is a fun thread when people actually discuss the topic in an earnest way.  It is also fun to poke around at people who like to troll... 

i bought a bunch of rolls of Kodak Color Plus for my street shooting this winter season.  They are all still sitting in my frig. I can’t bring myself to use it and instead reach for the portra every time.  

For larger formats i am even more wedded to the pro stocks.  

i tried all of the varieties of the “dubble film” films last spring at the dead sea in Israel. https://dubblefilm.com Boy was that a mistake!!  A total colossal waste of time, money and an opportunity!

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Your schmootz series is another worth mentioning.

[Steve Ricoh]

In answer to the question in the title of the thread, it’s about where things ‘break down’ and exercising control.

Read this to understand the meaning better: https://emulsive.org/articles/thoughts/why-shoot-film-its-about-where-things-break-down

Quite a thought provoking article, don’t you think? It has certainly made me think, deeply in fact, about the choice of using digital and / or film, and if film why it might be preferable not to choose the finest low grain ‘professional film’.

Credit to the author and to EM of emulsive.org 🙏

I’d love to hear the views of others, having read the article linked above.

[pgk]

OK, so here's my problem. I'm approaching things from the other way around because at the moment I'm digitising my old photographs, mainly slides but some negs too. Many are frustrating. I used to use Kodachrome 64 (or 25 but it was too slow for many uses), Ektachrome 64 and later Velvia 50 and Provia 100. All great films. But I digitise them and find that only a few really work well and for many the grain impinges too quickly and the information which I would like to see is lost.

I accept that there can be good creative reasons for shooting higher speed film in that it can produce images with a quality difficult to mimic easily digitally, but such images are specialist now and unlikely ever to become anything but niche. And perhaps that's the point, that film photography has and will have a place and is suited to specific situations (I have some in the fridge) but we are discussing a niche within a small sector of photography today. I have to be honest and say that if I'd had a 20MPixel camera 40 years ago I would have been overawed at its abilities and would have used it over a 35mm film camera anytime.

[giannis]

The discussion nowadays between "Pro" and "consumer" films is academic, with little relevance. For instance "pro" used to mean, among other things, that from factory to end customer, the film was kept refrigerated. Now I see countless "pro" rolls resting in shelves, sometimes by the windows hit by the sun, summer and winter. On the other hand, when a shop has a film fridge, they stick everything in, cause the volume is not so large to have to make the decision what film gets priority. That means all the Gold, Superia, even instax etc. is kept in the fridge, if that store has one.

To add to that, many films were available in "consumer" varieties and "pro" varieties. Now only one has survived so the argument which one to choose is moot. For example there's no fuji Sensia, only Provia is left. There's no Elitechrome, only E100G (ektachrome) is left. Same for many others. 

In the end, choose whatever film suits your contrast and saturation criteria. Pro means very little if the only pro film in that speed range has low contrast and saturation, and you need punchy contrast and increased saturation. Differences in graininess are marginal between pro and non-pro, while differences in quality control (emulsion coating, packaging, etc.) simply non-existent.The distinction was dubious from the beginning and is even more irrelevant now. Pick what you like and go shoot.

 

Pic related, on "consumer" film.

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[fatihayoglu]

Which ones are the pro grade films from Kodak, Ilford, Fuji and which ones are consumer? 

[250swb]

1 hour ago, giannis said:

The discussion nowadays between "Pro" and "consumer" films is academic, with little relevance. For instance "pro" used to mean, among other things, that from factory to end customer, the film was kept refrigerated. Now I see countless "pro" rolls resting in shelves, sometimes by the windows hit by the sun, summer and winter. On the other hand, when a shop has a film fridge, they stick everything in, cause the volume is not so large to have to make the decision what film gets priority. That means all the Gold, Superia, even instax etc. is kept in the fridge, if that store has one.

To add to that, many films were available in "consumer" varieties and "pro" varieties. Now only one has survived so the argument which one to choose is moot. For example there's no fuji Sensia, only Provia is left. There's no Elitechrome, only E100G (ektachrome) is left. Same for many others. 

In the end, choose whatever film suits your contrast and saturation criteria. Pro means very little if the only pro film in that speed range has low contrast and saturation, and you need punchy contrast and increased saturation. Differences in graininess are marginal between pro and non-pro, while differences in quality control (emulsion coating, packaging, etc.) simply non-existent.The distinction was dubious from the beginning and is even more irrelevant now. Pick what you like and go shoot.

 

Pic related, on "consumer" film.

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I suppose Adam is trying to say there is night and day between pro and consumer films, and for a consumer film this example makes it look like nighttime.

[giannis]

9 minutes ago, fatihayoglu said:

Which ones are the pro grade films from Kodak, Ilford, Fuji and which ones are consumer? 

Kodak: all are "Pro" except Gold/Ultramax and Colorplus

Ilford: all "Pro"

Fuji: all "Pro" except Superia and C200

3 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I suppose Adam is trying to say there is night and day between pro and consumer films, and for a consumer film this example makes it look like nighttime.

Haha nice