Flash performance very disappointing on the SL

[Albert Andersen]

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I have tested and found the method to get satisfactory results with flash on SL2-S. It works on both the "A", "S" program.
Set Auto ISO as follows:
Max. ISO flash 200
Min. exp.time 1/125 sec.
Select the aperture, and take the picture.
For backfill lights do as follows:
Measure the light in the brightest area and adjust with exp. compensation until the desired background level fit your choice.
Then use AF in the area to be in focus and take the picture.
After many attempts with what I defined as SL2-S with flash was useless, then the above works for me.
I've had Nikon equipment before, and with it, everything's so simple. Leica should look a little at the competitors and learn from them.

Hope it helps others with flash problems.

Tested with both SF40 and SF64

Regards 

Albert

[leicamr]

On 1/29/2016 at 11:03 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I thought I'd wait until I got my SF40 to make sure this is an issue. Unfortunately it is. The flash system on the SL is seriously broken and Leica need to put in a fix, fast. If you shoot with hotshoe flash I think you'll have to hold off on the SL for now.

 

These are my observations using a SF40, SF26 and 2xSF58's (fw 1.1 and 2.0)

 

1. Things appear to be normal in P and T modes. The flash fires as it should and exposures are fine (maybe a 1/3 stop under). However these modes are not available if you shoot M or R lenses.

 

2. In A mode the flash simply refuses to fire if the shutter speed is between 1/60 and 1/500 of a second. Are you serious Leica?? So you have no fill in flash throughout a significant range of shutter speeds in A mode.

 

3, M mode the shutter will fire at all shutter speeds. But as soon as you turn on the flash the exposure preview function for the EVF is disabled. So it's near impossible to visually judge a background exposure except by using the +/- in the EVF display. This totally negates the benefit of having an EVF.

 

So in short, if you have the 24-90 you'll get expected operation in T mode. If you use adapted M or r lenses you're flat out of luck.

 

I'm so incredibly disappointed by this. My main reason for spending $18,000 AUD was to get a better flash experience with the EVF than the M (sludgy with the grip/adaptor/plate setup). In my work I NEED to have an EVF and flash at the same time. Did no one at Leica or any of the several people involved with pre production cameras even put a flash on the hotshoe?

 

I accept that either my camera is faulty or there is a workaround I have missed. Has anybody with an SL and TTL flash got the camera to fire at all shutter speeds in AV mode? Or the EVF to display exposure preview with flash in M mode?

 

Gordon

 

 

I have just made a few quick tests with my SL and SF 64 firmware v1.1

Using the 24-90 the flash fired in all camera modes A, S, T, P & M. Shutter speed longest set to 60th/s in A mode and still fired up to 8000th/s.

I then mounted a 90 APO R with the adapter stack of M-L & M-R. The camera only has modes M & A available, but the flash still fires are all shutter speeds in either mode.

My only observation of Leica's flash system is, if the flash is set for straight / direct (non bounce) the auto focus has no affect on the flash output, and the flash output is controlled purely by the TTL of the camera.  With Nikon D300 / D800 + SB800, the flash output is determined by the distance that the camera has focussed on. That is the correct way to operate, as the subject matter has no influence on the flash exposure.  The Nikon flash is perfect. Leica is not broken in my setup, but if they could just make it work like the Nikon system as I have described, that would make it on par. 

I have no experience of the other flash systems mentioned in this thread, but I am really happy with the SF64. The SL's bottom right located 'soft button' is set for flash bracketing which is quick and easier than using the controls on the rear of the flash.

 

Mark

 

 

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[cirke]

I want a Godox on SL2  not a Nissin-thing,  Leica Flash system may be the worst  

[wlaidlaw]

I have found that the both the 40 and 60 Nissin flashes work well within their limitations and certainly far better than my Metz built SF24 and 58 Mk.1 flashes do. However I take the point that they are not a studio system and it is a pity that the SFC-1 controller was not more universal or usable with one or other of the big studio flash systems, Godox, Elinchrom or Bowens etc. 

Wilson

[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, leicamr said:

I have just made a few quick tests with my SL and SF 64 firmware v1.1

Using the 24-90 the flash fired in all camera modes A, S, T, P & M. Shutter speed longest set to 60th/s in A mode and still fired up to 8000th/s.

I then mounted a 90 APO R with the adapter stack of M-L & M-R. The camera only has modes M & A available, but the flash still fires are all shutter speeds in either mode.

My only observation of Leica's flash system is, if the flash is set for straight / direct (non bounce) the auto focus has no affect on the flash output, and the flash output is controlled purely by the TTL of the camera.  With Nikon D300 / D800 + SB800, the flash output is determined by the distance that the camera has focussed on. That is the correct way to operate, as the subject matter has no influence on the flash exposure.  The Nikon flash is perfect. Leica is not broken in my setup, but if they could just make it work like the Nikon system as I have described, that would make it on par. 

I have no experience of the other flash systems mentioned in this thread, but I am really happy with the SF64. The SL's bottom right located 'soft button' is set for flash bracketing which is quick and easier than using the controls on the rear of the flash.

 

Mark

 

 

This was from 5 years ago. Leica did a LOT of work on the flash firmware since then. A lot.

Gordon

 

 

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, cirke said:

I want a Godox on SL2  not a Nissin-thing,  Leica Flash system may be the worst  

I use Good flashes on my SL2 all the time. But I don't need TTL or HSS. Normal manual flash control works perfectly fine. For high speed flash I use something else and the only time I require HSS the SF60 is adequate.

Gordon

[BernardC]

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2 hours ago, leicamr said:

With Nikon D300 / D800 + SB800, the flash output is determined by the distance that the camera has focussed on. That is the correct way to operate, as the subject matter has no influence on the flash exposure.  The Nikon flash is perfect. Leica is not broken in my setup

Nikon's method works if you use on-axis, on-camera, direct flash with no light modifiers. They offered a "GN" lens that did the same thing, back in the day. You fire the flash at full power and use the focusing distance to determine the aperture. Nikon's GN lense did that mechanically (as did the Olympus RC and many other fixed-lens 1970s cameras). It's easy enough to do that in software now, but it's also very limiting in terms of "look."

Many portrait photographers use a similar system with studio flashes. For instance, 6 feet (170cm) from your softbox might be f:16, so you only have to adjust your lighting slightly to compensate for subject height.

[Photoworks]

3 hours ago, cirke said:

I want a Godox on SL2  not a Nissin-thing,  Leica Flash system may be the worst  

To talk with you, buggy SL2, Nissin overheating and terrible backlight issue with SL2.

Please Leica open up the system and get it going with Profoto and godox.

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I use Good flashes on my SL2 all the time. But I don't need TTL or HSS. Normal manual flash control works perfectly fine. For high speed flash I use something else and the only time I require HSS the SF60 is adequate.

Gordon

Manual is cute but for fast past work it is stressful .  shoot inside then outside, then into the light and turn around. No thank you.

TTL is what I'm paying for.  I have old flashes that had a sensor on the flash and you could shoot in A mode and the flash was regulated by it. I had Nikon and Metz flashes like that..

[FlashGordonPhotography]

4 hours ago, Photoworks said:

To talk with you, buggy SL2, Nissin overheating and terrible backlight issue with SL2.

Please Leica open up the system and get it going with Profoto and godox.

Well, I shot a wedding yesterday with Godox flashes and they both shut down due to overheating, in not overly warm conditions. Single shot. No burst shooting at all.  Dissapointing and frustrating. Too many modern flashes have stupidly conservative heat sensors, not just Nissin. Actually my SF60's have yet to give me heat issues.

The SF64 was very good in this regard. It had an awful operating system but it kept on firing.

I do agree that Leica should give up on flash and just open the protocols to companies that know what they're doing. Have said this many times. Or do what Hasselblad did and just use Nikons protocols.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

4 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Manual is cute but for fast past work it is stressful .  shoot inside then outside, then into the light and turn around. No thank you.

TTL is what I'm paying for.  I have old flashes that had a sensor on the flash and you could shoot in A mode and the flash was regulated by it. I had Nikon and Metz flashes like that..

I've shot manual flash in commercial environments for 30 years. I don't find it stressful at all. TTL is useful but manual is predictable.

Gordon

[cirke]

7 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I use Good flashes on my SL2 all the time. But I don't need TTL or HSS. Normal manual flash control works perfectly fine. For high speed flash I use something else and the only time I require HSS the SF60 is adequate.

Gordon

without HSS  no way for me

[Photoworks]

37 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Well, I shot a wedding yesterday with Godox flashes and they both shut down due to overheating, in not overly warm conditions. Single shot. No burst shooting at all.  Dissapointing and frustrating. Too many modern flashes have stupidly conservative heat sensors, not just Nissin. Actually my SF60's have yet to give me heat issues.

The SF64 was very good in this regard. It had an awful operating system but it kept on firing.

I do agree that Leica should give up on flash and just open the protocols to companies that know what they're doing. Have said this many times. Or do what Hasselblad did and just use Nikons protocols.

Gordon

I had Nissin in use with sony cameras, absolutely garbage. It was the fist wireless for the camera. Overheating issues non stop.

I have probably 8 godox for sony now and only one model had heat issues. I run them all day on events with external power at shoot with 3000-4000 images at 1/4 power reliable .

The Leica SF 60 with external power on SL2 keeps turning off after few hundred shots. Used at low power and normal use. I just have to remember to turn it back on ever so often .

[Photoworks]

42 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I've shot manual flash in commercial environments for 30 years. I don't find it stressful at all. TTL is useful but manual is predictable.

Gordon

I use all manual on most of my shoots, portable flashes and studio flashes to control the lighting and have consistency .

When I need to cover and event I want to use TTL because the distance to my subject changes all the time , in M mode I would have to adjust every couple of shots the power output

[Ingo]

I really hope that Profoto will release a Leica version of the A1x. Or at least a Profoto Connect or Air Remote TTL. 

 

[ski542002]

I loved my SL, and M240.  Stellar image quality, bulletproof construction.  I suffered thru all of the issues with my SL mentioned in today's posts. When I needed to use flash, I resorted to fully manual speedlights and guide numbers.  I'm an old guy and could (in the past), shoot transparency film and accurately compute fill flash ratios run-and-gun outdoors in varying ambient light conditions without the need to bracket.  My head hurt from all of the fast-math, but that (fully manual) level of accuracy cannot be beat by any automated flash today, from any manufacturer. 

BUT, my frustrations grew with the SL and I eventually sold all of my gear and went over to the dark side.  Can't say I enjoy the transition, but now if I have an issue, I know it's my fault and not the gear. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

4 hours ago, Photoworks said:

I had Nissin in use with sony cameras, absolutely garbage. It was the fist wireless for the camera. Overheating issues non stop.

I have probably 8 godox for sony now and only one model had heat issues. I run them all day on events with external power at shoot with 3000-4000 images at 1/4 power reliable .

The Leica SF 60 with external power on SL2 keeps turning off after few hundred shots. Used at low power and normal use. I just have to remember to turn it back on ever so often .

My first experience with flashes overheating was a pair of Sony guns. Horrible things. Maybe 40 shots at a wedding reception and then 10 minutes on a table. Absolute crap. I sent them back as not fit for purpose. Sony quietly updated that model to try and solve the issue but it never properly cured them. The only thing I miss from Canon was how bomb proof the flashes were. My shooting partner on the weekend was using his 7 year old Canon 580's. Never missed a shot. I have yet to see anything that comes close to Nikon or Canon's top offerings for reliability and heat management. Pretty much everything else you can put on a hotshoe overheats.

Gordon

[ski542002]

On 4/11/2021 at 9:07 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

My first experience with flashes overheating was a pair of Sony guns. Horrible things. Maybe 40 shots at a wedding reception and then 10 minutes on a table. Absolute crap. I sent them back as not fit for purpose. Sony quietly updated that model to try and solve the issue but it never properly cured them. The only thing I miss from Canon was how bomb proof the flashes were. My shooting partner on the weekend was using his 7 year old Canon 580's. Never missed a shot. I have yet to see anything that comes close to Nikon or Canon's top offerings for reliability and heat management. Pretty much everything else you can put on a hotshoe overheats.

Gordon

I agree with the robust build quality of Canon speedlights.  Never had one fail.

I shoot a lot of strobe, on-and-off camera.  When I shot strobe with my now-gone SL, I used fully manual LumoPro’s.  Still have 5 of these gems.  Canon build quality without the automation.   I’m an old guy and am fully versed in shooting with guide numbers, to the level that I had no trouble shooting run and gun with transparency film, with a manual flash, no bracketing, in any ambient light environment. My head hurt from all of the computing, but there is no better accuracy, than fully manual.

Now, I’ve standardized on Flashpoint (godox) strobes.  Have 8 units in various iterations. Fantastic strobes.  5 of the units are transceivers. Fast recycling, fully manual or accurate TTL, HSS, great battery life, no overheating.   Also have the R2 wireless transmitter.  The only drawback, the build quality is a bit on the “cheap side”, which is to be expected given the great pricing of this brand.  That said, for going on 3 years of use, I've never had a breakdown.

If Flashpoint/godox had a Leica branded iteration, I might have kept the SL.  Interesting discussion as always!

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, ski542002 said:

I agree with the robust build quality of Canon speedlights.  Never had one fail.

They had one bad model, ten years ago. It was redesigned relatively quickly. Within a year, if I recall.

One advantage of Canon Pro Services is that the company finds-out right away if any of their pro gear is faulty.

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[ski542002]

1 minute ago, BernardC said:

They had one bad model, ten years ago. It was redesigned relatively quickly. Within a year, if I recall.

One advantage of Canon Pro Services is that the company finds-out right away if any of their pro gear is faulty.

CPS is the best.   Sony isn't to that level (yet?), and Leica will never get to that level IMO.   Leica is a much smaller manufacturer so it might be an unfair comparison, but if you're shooting professionally, after-the-sale pro support is mandatory.