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Flash performance very disappointing on the SL


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Very interesting.  I didn't realize that TTL flash is particular challenging to implement with digital.  Personally I'm quite fine using just the A mode on my flash rather than TTL and that's completely independent of the camera's sensor.  The downside with A mode at least on my SF20 is that the settings are very coarse.  For example, aperture settings are in two-stop increments I believe and exposure compensation can only be in negative full stops.  So you end up having to do adjustments through the ISO setting where you can do things in +/- 1/3 stops, a nuisance and a more time consuming process.  But quite honestly the results have always been great and I've never felt a need for TTL for my type of shooting which is mostly just for daylight fill-flash of portraits.

 

 

I have two dedicated flash units, one for Olympus (FL-36) and one for Nikon (SB-30), but use them similarly on Auto rather than TTL mode even on their paired-dedicated bodies. The Olympus flash has +/- 0.3EV steps, up to 2EV total offset. The Nikon is much simpler in that regard with just +/- 1EV settings. 

 

The moment when I'd like TTL flash is when I'm doing macro work with a big bellows extension, but those sorts of setups are generally very static and it's just as easy to pop a few exposures to see what works best. 

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For those of you who have an SF 58, I'd like to know:

 

- With SL set to A or M and the flash set to A, do the ISO, aperture, and focal length get automatically communicated to the flash when using the native 24-90 zoom?

- With SL set to A or M and the flash set to A, do the ISO and focal length get automatically communicated to the flash when using an M lens via an adapter?  And when dialing the aperture into the flash manually, which you'll need to do in this case, does the aperture adjust in full-stop increments starting from f1.4 or wider? (On the SF 20, for example, you can only select f2.8, f5.6 or f11 which is very annoying. On the SF24D this in full stops starting from f2.0.  Ideally I prefer full stops starting from f1.4.)

- With the flash set to A, what increments can you adjust the flash compensation in?  On the SF20, it is 0 to -3EV only, in full stops.  On the SF24D, this is +/-3EV in full stops.  Neither is ideal.  I prefer +/-3EV in 1/3 stops.

- How well does the built-in diffuser work for fill-flash?

 

Thanks.

Edited by cpclee
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I thought I'd wait until I got my SF40 to make sure this is an issue. Unfortunately it is. The flash system on the SL is seriously broken and Leica need to put in a fix, fast. If you shoot with hotshoe flash I think you'll have to hold off on the SL for now.

 

These are my observations using a SF40, SF26 and 2xSF58's (fw 1.1 and 2.0)

 

Love the name, FlashGordon! I am hoping this does not apply to Elinchrom lights triggered by their Skyport trigger wirelessly. It works well on the T.

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For those of you who have an SF 58, I'd like to know:

 

- With SL set to A or M and the flash set to A, do the ISO, aperture, and focal length get automatically communicated to the flash when using the native 24-90 zoom?

- With SL set to A or M and the flash set to A, do the ISO and focal length get automatically communicated to the flash when using an M lens via an adapter?  And when dialing the aperture into the flash manually, which you'll need to do in this case, does the aperture adjust in full-stop increments starting from f1.4 or wider? (On the SF 20, for example, you can only select f2.8, f5.6 or f11 which is very annoying. On the SF24D this in full stops starting from f2.0.  Ideally I prefer full stops starting from f1.4.)

- With the flash set to A, what increments can you adjust the flash compensation in?  On the SF20, it is 0 to -3EV only, in full stops.  On the SF24D, this is +/-3EV in full stops.  Neither is ideal.  I prefer +/-3EV in 1/3 stops.

- How well does the built-in diffuser work for fill-flash?

 

Thanks.

 

I will check later and post. Certainly in M mode and with the flash set to TTL or HSS-TTL, ISO, Aperture and Focal length are transmitted and obviously in that mode, you can lock the shutter speed. The built in diffusor is not wonderful and I use a Sto-Fen made for the Metz MZ58i, which is not expensive.

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In M mode on the SL and A on the 58 flash, certainly aperture and focal length are transmitted. I assume ISO is as well, since the ISO advice has disappeared from the flash display. You in theory can alter the EV up and down by 1/3 of a unit on the flash but as far as I can see, it is not working or making any difference. I took 2 successive photos at +3 EV and -3 EV adjustment on the 58 in A mode and they look exactly the same. So again the flash is fighting with the camera and vice versa, rather than cooperating/communicating. Obviously in M mode, EV adjustment is not available on the camera. Ho-hummm, roll on the FW update, which hopefully might improve all this mess. 

 

Wilson

Edited by wlaidlaw
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Just out of curiosity. I am under two impressions:

 

Firstly, that Panasonic build or in the past built Nikon (and Contax) flash units - do they not build Leica's, given the tie up?

 

Secondly, that Metz have reversed engineered flashes for most manufacturers.

 

Can anyone confirm these statement and tell me who builds Leica flash units?

 

(And FWIW I don't actually use flash with my Ms but do use flash extensively professionally - but always manually despite having TTL units).

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Thanks for trying.  I assume this was using the 24-90 zoom, given that aperture was automatically communicated?  If you can mount an M lens also, I'd love to know if the aperture can be manually set on the flash in A mode to 1.4, 2.0, 2.8 ... 16 (all full stops).  

 

As to why the flash compensation isn't working, that is very puzzling.  Presumably in A mode the flash output amount is determined entirely by the flash and shouldn't be affected by firmware bugs in the SL.  The camera merely triggers the onset of the flash but does not control the amount.  I don't have my camera at the moment but can give it a try this weekend with the SF 20.

 

 

In M mode on the SL and A on the 58 flash, certainly aperture and focal length are transmitted. I assume ISO is as well, since the ISO advice has disappeared from the flash display. You in theory can alter the EV up and down by 1/3 of a unit on the flash but as far as I can see, it is not working or making any difference. I took 2 successive photos at +3 EV and -3 EV adjustment on the 58 in A mode and they look exactly the same. So again the flash is fighting with the camera and vice versa, rather than cooperating/communicating. Obviously in M mode, EV adjustment is not available on the camera. Ho-hummm, roll on the FW update, which hopefully might improve all this mess. 

 

Wilson

Edited by cpclee
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Just out of curiosity. I am under two impressions:

 

Firstly, that Panasonic build or in the past built Nikon (and Contax) flash units - do they not build Leica's, given the tie up?

 

Secondly, that Metz have reversed engineered flashes for most manufacturers.

 

Can anyone confirm these statement and tell me who builds Leica flash units?

 

(And FWIW I don't actually use flash with my Ms but do use flash extensively professionally - but always manually despite having TTL units).

 

Metz have made all recent Leica flashes until the SF40, which is made by Nissin. Metz will be making the SF64. If you look at Metz's own products over the years, you will find in nearly every case, there is a close cousin of the Leica flashes in their own range. Metz used to be next door to Leica on the Solms industrial estate some years ago but after Metz's insolvency in 2014 and acquisition by the Daum Group, I don't know if they are still there. I suspect their insolvency may have been due to their very inopportune entry into the super competitive flat screen TV business, with premium+ priced but rather ordinary range of TV's if quite nice looking. In France, at the beginning of last year, these were being sold off reduced, when I was looking to buy a new TV but in the end I bought a Philips 49" 4K TV for the same price as a discounted Metz 48" 1080P. 

 

Wilson

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Thanks for trying.  I assume this was using the 24-90 zoom, given that aperture was automatically communicated?  If you can mount an M lens also, I'd love to know if the aperture can be manually set on the flash in A mode to 1.4, 2.0, 2.8 ... 16 (all full stops).  

 

As to why the flash compensation isn't working, that is very puzzling.  Presumably in A mode the flash output amount is determined entirely by the flash and shouldn't be affected by firmware bugs in the SL.  The camera merely triggers the onset of the flash but does not control the amount.  I don't have my camera at the moment but can give it a try this weekend with the SF 20.

I will try M lenses later today, when I clean the Wetzlar Goblin Snot blobs off my SL sensor, where I will mount a 90mm Elmarit-M, that is easier to mount, unmount and defocus than the 24-90. If you take the flash off the camera in A mode, ISO reappears on the flash LCD screen and the flash strength control of EV +/- works. There must be an instruction coming up from the SL that is blocking EV alteration working on the flash, even though it shows as selected on the LCD. What I also have not tried is going into the flash menu on the SL to see if altering EV there works on the 58. Again I will try later. 

 

Wilson

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I have to say how much I admire you guys having invested in the SL. Whilst most if not all the issues have a work around, Leica have IMHO let the side down. Yes it can use many different lenses, surely though the cost of the adapters, the flash issues and some performance issues mean that as a Pro unit it lacks the ba$$s to do the job..

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Manual M lenses with the M to T/SL adapter do communicate focal length to the 58 flash both in TTL and A modes and the head zooms accordingly. However, not unexpectedly, aperture is not communicated and has to be set manually. What does work on the 58 (in total contrast to what the SL's manual says), is exposure compensation from the flash settings menu on the camera. The manual says EV compensation should work on the flash, which as posted above, it does not. 

 

Wilson

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Good to hear.  And can you check if with an M lens the aperture setting on the flash is in full-stop increments when the flash is in A mode?  What is the widest aperture you can set the flash to?

 

Thanks again.

 

Manual M lenses with the M to T/SL adapter do communicate focal length to the 58 flash both in TTL and A modes and the head zooms accordingly. However, not unexpectedly, aperture is not communicated and has to be set manually. What does work on the 58 (in total contrast to what the SL's manual says), is exposure compensation from the flash settings menu on the camera. The manual says EV compensation should work on the flash, which as posted above, it does not. 

 

Wilson

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Good to hear.  And can you check if with an M lens the aperture setting on the flash is in full-stop increments when the flash is in A mode?  What is the widest aperture you can set the flash to?

 

Thanks again.

 

I spent quite a long time this morning getting the sensor cover glass on the SL clean, so I am afraid the 24-90 is staying firmly on there until I leave for Myanmar in a few days time. However the EV setting increments will be as per SF-58D manual. In case this has disappeared from Leica's website, I have posted a copy here https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7999761/Leica%20SF%2058%20Instruction_en.pdf 

 

Wilson

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Metz have made all recent Leica flashes until the SF40, which is made by Nissin. Metz will be making the SF64.

I find this odd given the Panasonic connection and the fact that Panasonic have built flash units for a very long time (and are subcontractor to some big names I believe). Why did Leica choose this route I wonder?

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For those of you who have an SF 58, I'd like to know:

 

- With SL set to A or M and the flash set to A, do the ISO, aperture, and focal length get automatically communicated to the flash when using the native 24-90 zoom?

- With SL set to A or M and the flash set to A, do the ISO and focal length get automatically communicated to the flash when using an M lens via an adapter?  And when dialing the aperture into the flash manually, which you'll need to do in this case, does the aperture adjust in full-stop increments starting from f1.4 or wider? (On the SF 20, for example, you can only select f2.8, f5.6 or f11 which is very annoying. On the SF24D this in full stops starting from f2.0.  Ideally I prefer full stops starting from f1.4.)

- With the flash set to A, what increments can you adjust the flash compensation in?  On the SF20, it is 0 to -3EV only, in full stops.  On the SF24D, this is +/-3EV in full stops.  Neither is ideal.  I prefer +/-3EV in 1/3 stops.

- How well does the built-in diffuser work for fill-flash?

 

Thanks.

 

The SF 58 doesn't work on the SL properly even in *auto* or *manual* mode on the flash. The behaviour is the same as TTL. So it won't fire if the camera is in A or P and above 1/30. It fires in M mode but the exposure preview is disabled. It works in T mode.

 

It appears that as soon as the camera sees the TTL pins on the flash it plays up regardless of the modes set on the flash.

 

Auto mode using another brand of flash works fine. Just not a TTL Leica one.

 

But when it does work the information you wanted does get passed through and FEC is 1/3 stop.

 

Gordon

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I find this odd given the Panasonic connection and the fact that Panasonic have built flash units for a very long time (and are subcontractor to some big names I believe). Why did Leica choose this route I wonder?

 

Almost all the current Panasonic flashes are made by Olympus who own the TTL protocols for the 4/3 system.

 

Gordon

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A couple more things:

 

1. The dial on the SF40 is not disabled. On the M system it works and works well.

 

2. The exposure preview function is disabled in all modes when using flash. This means that even in T mode, where the flash fires, you get NO indication in the display that your ambient exposure is out of range. So you can roll through the entire range of shutter speeds and there is no indication that you might be over or under exposing ambient light. Even the exposure compensation indicator in the EVF just says that you have an accurate exposure even if your ambient is out by several stops.

 

3. Leica TTL flashes don't work in any mode on the SL, properly. You can't just move to auto or manual flash in aperture priority or program because the flash will behave exactly the same as it does in TTL. The ONLY way to use flash in Aperture Priority is to use a non-Leica flash.

 

Gordon

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