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Flash performance very disappointing on the SL


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So, I got a response from leica Australia who forwarded my email to the SL team in Germany. The reply was very nice and pro-active about the issue.

 

Short answer is they acknowledge the TTL system isn't right and they're looking to address it sooner than later but no promises of a fixed date.

 

Happy with the response and looking forward to getting it sorted. Bring on those firmware updates... :)

 

Gordon

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So, I got a response from leica Australia who forwarded my email to the SL team in Germany. The reply was very nice and pro-active about the issue.

 

Short answer is they acknowledge the TTL system isn't right and they're looking to address it sooner than later but no promises of a fixed date.

 

Happy with the response and looking forward to getting it sorted. Bring on those firmware updates... :)

 

Gordon

 

Thinking about this, it is a bit surprising that we have had to tell Leica about this (as of 9th December they thought that it all worked just fine and at worst was only a problem with the legacy flashes). You would have thought that the team writing the manual, who presumably had an SL and prototype SF40 or 64 to hand, did not say: "hang on a minute guys, this doesn't work like we are writing down." I would assume it is supposed to work exactly like the M240 does, so you would have thought that 1) the code was the same and 2) that it would have been spotted more quickly. If not by Leica then at least by the Metz-Mecablitz or Nissin teams, who have a greater stake in the flash working properly. 

 

Wilson

Edited by wlaidlaw
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Paul, 

 

I understand from people who have tried to use the considerably cheaper Nissin i40 (£143 against £280 for the SF40), that it works even less well on a Leica SL than the Leica badged Nissin/SF40, so it looks as if some changes have been made in the OS of the flash for Leica. Basically all you get is the central contact flash fire off. Now I don't know which sub-model of the i40 they tried. I would guess the Nikon would be the nearest as it has at least the same "pin out" as Leica. 

 

I have set up a flash profile of Manual Mode/ISO 400/1/160 second for using my SF58 and that is a reasonable work around for the time being. Both the focal length and aperture are communicating correctly to the flash. It works OK for middle and far distances with TTL but over compensates for near distances, where you need to set around +0.7 EV on the flash. 

 

Wilson

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Flash Gordon - The Fuji XT-1/ Fuji X-Pro1 will work in HSS mode for flash with the NIssen I40 set to MANUAL HSS mode. Granted this isn't TTL but for me I prefer manual flash anyway as of course you well know that TTL is a bit unreliable exposure wise on any camera system.

 

I may be wrong on this but Isn't the Leica flash for the SL a re-badged Nissen I40? 

 

I accept of course that just because HSS with this flash will work on Fuji that doesn't mean it will work on the Leica system.  I also realise that when you're working fast you need TTL as well.

 

Even with a Nikon and SB900, I still when using TTL chimp the screen and adjust the flash output up or down a bit as colour of subject skin or colour of clothes will affect the flash exposure.

 

Edit:   The I40 flash has to be the dedicated Fuji one to work in this way.

 

Paul,

 

I have the i40 for Fujifilm and Sony as well as the Leica version. Each one operates slightly differently. TTL HSS flash works on the Sony and Leica versions but not the Fujifilm (it's a hidden function in manual mode on the Fuji as you mention). On the Leica the exposure compensation dial on the flash does nothing in TTL mode but works just fine on the Sony and Fuji models. Simply, the firmware for each flash is slightly different and enables or disables some functions.

 

As for the unreliability of TTL flash, like anything if you learn it well enough then you learn when to override it. Having said this TTL is really the only option available when a bride is walking down the aisle for reasonably consistent exposures. Manual works great for static working distances but I'm often in dynamic environments and auto mode is mostly like a centre weighted system with a relatively wide coverage (35mm equiv) that often doesn't suit the environment. The SF40 doesn't have an auto mode as we usually know it because there's no exposure sensor in the flash. The best fill flash TTL system I've used was the Sony followed by Nikon. For off camera TTL it's Canon followed by the rather wonderful Olympus system simply because it's so easy to use. For manual flash I prefer Elinchrom's skyport but I also use the Godox 360 and wireless trigger a lot. These both work great on the SL.

 

With the SF58 you could switch to auto mode which will still read the camera set ISO and focal length but use a sensor in the flash and settings on the flash rather than off the sensor. Unfortunately the i40's manual mode isn't the same and still relies on the TTL system in the camera. It just disables the exposure compensation dial, much like the Leica SF40 does in TTL mode. None of this helps if the hotshoe is disabled in A mode with shutter speeds above 1/30. Mind you it's only disabled for Leica TTL flashes (even if they're used in manual mode). For some reason single pin flash guns and triggers fire just fine.

 

But it looks like a solution will arrive in the relatively short term.

 

Gordon

Edited by FlashGordonPhotography
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SF 240 probably wouldn't be powerful enough for you either Gordon for covering a wedding.

 

I know things have changed a lot but I started out I suppose like many with a Metz 402 and then a Metz CT60 in the days before TTL - now of course it's all dedicated TTL  with SB900's.

 

Just as an aside to this I have got a really nice collection of Nikon SB flashes for virtually nothing because they won't dedicate with digital. I picked up my bargain of all bargains when I bought a Nikon SB80 for £10 in mint condition the other month. I saw it in a shop and grabbed it straight away - the shop owner was at pains to point out that it could only be used for older film Nikons. I of course never said that was OK by me because I only wanted it to use in manual mode via a manual wireless trigger.

 

For me then I have a couple of SB900's for TTL and a bag of cheap SB flashes for manual strobist off camera use with ANY camera system along with the Yongnuo RF 602 wireless triggers. These RF 602N's  work better than anything that I know even dare I say it Pocket Wizards.

 

PS: on my avatar pic I'm using a SB800 on a Nikon - my friend took it and then took the p**s out of me for trying to light with a flash from 2000ft. Actually the flash was for the inside of the helicopter but his pic made a nice one for me to nick to use as an avatar!

 

I've shot a couple of full weddings and needed nothing more than an i40 on my Fuji cameras. Modern high ISO helps a lot. However I do intend to either use my SF58's or purchase an SF64 for the SL. I really bought the SF40 because it suits the M cameras so well. I expect that often it will be enough for use at a wedding because in the environment I shoot my main use is really fill flash. I also carry a Godox 360 to each wedding and have that to use when necessary. Plenty of power there.

 

Good find on the Nikon guns. It's a shame people dump this incredibly useful stuff. But great for you. I have a bunch of older guns, collected over the years that make near perfect hair lights and rim lights in studio and on location. And a couple of sets of eneloops makes them into a rechargeable battery system. I'm so dull I'm still triggering most of them off wein optical slaves although I do have a couple of cheap Chinese triggers. Many of the older Metz guns have a slave built in.

 

Nice avatar pic. I've never got round to doing mine.

 

Gordon

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This has been a good thread to lurk and learn. If the unit cannot be fixed, we would have to call you flashgordon or worse, you would no longer be using Leicas to inform the rest of us.

Indeed, very useful info. I have to admit I have never used TTL on any camera, though I've used off-camera flash (cheap older Nikons) with wireless triggers a lot for portraits with the M9 and M240. With the SL I would be likely to try TTL for more mobile events if I knew it would work - I look forward to progress.

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TTL on the SF58 works very well for weddings with the M240. With slow speed sync, it is especially good for weddings that start in the afternoon, where you just want a bit of fill-in to begin with and continues on into the evening, where you need full flash. Once it gets dark, for the closer shots, I use a Sto-Fen diffusor on the SF58. I really only do weddings for the extended family nowadays but I would like to use flash in aperture priority and with the SL, to have zoom and zoom flash coupling for my next wedding in April. I am happy to buy an SF64 but only as and when it works like it says on the box. It would be nice to have EV adjustment on the camera rather than the flash, as with the 58, given how many button pushes it is there. 

Edited by wlaidlaw
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TTL on the SF58 works very well for weddings with the M240. With slow speed sync, it is especially good for weddings that start in the afternoon, where you just want a bit of fill-in to begin with and continues on into the evening, where you need full flash. Once it gets dark, for the closer shots, I use a Sto-Fen diffusor on the SF58. I really only do weddings for the extended family nowadays but I would like to use flash in aperture priority and with the SL, to have zoom and zoom flash coupling for my next wedding in April. I am happy to buy an SF64 but only as and when it works like it says on the box. It would be nice to have EV adjustment on the camera rather than the flash, as with the 58, given how many button pushes it is there. 

 

It does, except for being really unwieldy and requiring a lot of extras to use it with the EVF in the shoe. Hopefully Leica get it to work like the M I'd be happy enough with that. Personally I prefer to bounce off a side wall but I also keep a stofen in the bag.

 

It's a shame the exposure compensation dial is disabled on the SF40. It's a brilliantly easy way to have FEC on the Nissin equivalent. Sony and Olympus hotshoe flashes have a version of this as well. If we're going to use the SL then Leica will need to make FEC a customisable button function because now it's buried well down in the flash settings in the menu. Also on the M with the i40 flash exposure compensation through the body is disabled so there's actually no way to have FEC with the M/SF40 combo.

 

Gordon

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This has been a good thread to lurk and learn. If the unit cannot be fixed, we would have to call you flashgordon or worse, you would no longer be using Leicas to inform the rest of us.

 

Currently everything I'd like to use the SL for I'm currently splitting between Fujifilm and Sony. I still use my M's for work and play as well. The SL is really only getting used for some non TTL portraiture work until things get sorted. When they do I think the SL and M will be able to do 80% of what I need. The other thing is batteries. I have two on order but still haven't got them. Can't rely on a single battery in a work environment.

 

Even if I stopped using them for work I think I'll always have a Leica somewhere. Last time I tried to consolidate my M gear I actually ended up with more stuff, including another body. Can't help myself.

 

Gordon

Edited by FlashGordonPhotography
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It does, except for being really unwieldy and requiring a lot of extras to use it with the EVF in the shoe. Hopefully Leica get it to work like the M I'd be happy enough with that. Personally I prefer to bounce off a side wall but I also keep a stofen in the bag.

 

It's a shame the exposure compensation dial is disabled on the SF40. It's a brilliantly easy way to have FEC on the Nissin equivalent. Sony and Olympus hotshoe flashes have a version of this as well. If we're going to use the SL then Leica will need to make FEC a customisable button function because now it's buried well down in the flash settings in the menu. Also on the M with the i40 flash exposure compensation through the body is disabled so there's actually no way to have FEC with the M/SF40 combo.

 

Gordon

 

Gordon, 

 

If I have read the manual correctly or the manual is correct (both big assumptions), when the SF40 and 64 are finally working properly, can't we just use the EV control on the camera, to control the flash level? For quick access to EV,  I have configured it as a long push to the LV button (Button #28 on the manual diagram), with a clear 3M Bumpon on the top for ease of finding with the camera to the eye. The manual does say that this will not be available for legacy flashes such as the 58, which implies it definitely will be there for the 64 and 40. That would be my main reason for getting a 64, when Leica finally get their flash act together. Is this yet another thing which is currently not working with the SL and SF40? 

 

Wilson

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Hi Wilson,

 

I can assign exposure comp. to a long press but not flash exposure compensation. That one is buried in the flash settings sub menu. Because the i40 wheel doesn't work in TTL it  makes it difficult to independently change flash exposure against background exposure. I have flash settings in my favourites but it means I still have some menu diving to adjust the TTL output independently of ambient.

 

I'll be bringing that up with Leica as well.

 

Gordon

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Hi Wilson,

 

I can assign exposure comp. to a long press but not flash exposure compensation. That one is buried in the flash settings sub menu. Because the i40 wheel doesn't work in TTL it  makes it difficult to independently change flash exposure against background exposure. I have flash settings in my favourites but it means I still have some menu diving to adjust the TTL output independently of ambient.

 

I'll be bringing that up with Leica as well.

 

Gordon

 

Gordon, 

 

In my view, when a flash is attached and active, the EV adjustment should alter flash output. As I see it, that is obvious but sadly maybe not to Leica. 

 

Wilson

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Gordon, 

 

In my view, when a flash is attached and active, the EV adjustment should alter flash output. As I see it, that is obvious but sadly maybe not to Leica. 

 

Wilson

 

I like to have both available. That way I can manipulate subject and environment separately in A and S mode. So far it seems that with a flash on in A,T or P exposure compensation changes both ambient and flash. That means I'll need to be able to have FEC accessible as well. On some systems you can choose whether exposure compensation adjusts both or leaves the flash alone.

 

I'd prefer that functionality doesn't change when an accessory is attached. So exposure compensation should be, for me, exposure compensation and not switch to something else.

 

Gordon

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  • 2 weeks later...

Back in the R8/R9/M6 TTL days, I remember these cameras handled TTL flash quite effortlessly, and ambient exposure compensation and flash compensation could be adjusted separately in 1/2 or maybe 1/3 stops with a dedicated flash such as the SF20.  There is no excuse for the SL to not be able to do the same.  I'm not so sure about the feasibility of EVF preview, however.  Are you referring to previews based on pre-flash?

 

FWIW I tried the SF20 in A mode on the SL which was also set to its A mode.  My fill-flash test shots turned out quite nicely and evenly illuminated and the camera synced at speeds between X and 1/250 without issue.  I did remember to dial the flash to -1.75EV to account for the fill situation and this was done by adjusting the ISO setting on the flash.  (In A mode the SF20 will only do exposure compensation in full stops which wasn't good enough for me.)

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Back in the R8/R9/M6 TTL days, I remember these cameras handled TTL flash quite effortlessly, and ambient exposure compensation and flash compensation could be adjusted separately in 1/2 or maybe 1/3 stops with a dedicated flash such as the SF20.  There is no excuse for the SL to not be able to do the same.  I'm not so sure about the feasibility of EVF preview, however.  Are you referring to previews based on pre-flash?

 

FWIW I tried the SF20 in A mode on the SL which was also set to its A mode.  My fill-flash test shots turned out quite nicely and evenly illuminated and the camera synced at speeds between X and 1/250 without issue.  I did remember to dial the flash to -1.75EV to account for the fill situation and this was done by adjusting the ISO setting on the flash.  (In A mode the SF20 will only do exposure compensation in full stops which wasn't good enough for me.)

 

 

I never used the R8 with a TTL flash unit so I have no basis of comparison there. However, I've had dedicated TTL flash units for Nikon, Canon, and Olympus/Panasonic bodies as well as for film bodies from the same brands, and a couple of others. IMO, I haven't seen a digital body yet that does TTL flash as well as its comparable film body does. The glossy, reflective sensor is simply a completely different medium to read exposure from by comparison to a piece of film and I don't think anyone has really got it as well under control as yet. 

 

That's not to say that the SL is fine as is. I can't say from personal experience since I don't own/use a TTL flash unit with it, but from all accounts it's inconsistent and doesn't do what its documentation implies that it ought to. 

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I agree. The Metz SCA units did exactly what the manuals said they did on film cameras. I used them on various Contaxes (139, RTS2, RX, G1 and G2) and Leica M6 on Metz MZ40-2, MZ45CL-4 and MZ60CT-4 flash units and got very good and consistent results. The only digital camera I have had, where the flash worked exactly as expected was the Digilux 2 with the SF-24D, although the M240 with the SF-58D is not at all bad, just a bit inconsistent, particularly on bounce with fill in.

 

I think Metz who have made all Leica flashes up until the Nissin SF40, have rather lost the plot. When I got the M8 in early 2007, I wanted a more powerful flash than the SF24. I spoke at some length to Metz, who insisted that the MZ 54 worked perfectly with an SCA3502 Mark 5, so I purchased both. It didn't really work in TTL at all. I went and talked to them at Photokina, where again they insisted it all worked. I handed them my M8, MZ54 and SCA module, which I had taken with me and said: "OK - show me". Red faces at Metz and a refund sent via their UK agent the next week. 

 

Wilson

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Very interesting.  I didn't realize that TTL flash is particular challenging to implement with digital.  Personally I'm quite fine using just the A mode on my flash rather than TTL and that's completely independent of the camera's sensor.  The downside with A mode at least on my SF20 is that the settings are very coarse.  For example, aperture settings are in two-stop increments I believe and exposure compensation can only be in negative full stops.  So you end up having to do adjustments through the ISO setting where you can do things in +/- 1/3 stops, a nuisance and a more time consuming process.  But quite honestly the results have always been great and I've never felt a need for TTL for my type of shooting which is mostly just for daylight fill-flash of portraits.

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Very interesting.  I didn't realize that TTL flash is particular challenging to implement with digital.  Personally I'm quite fine using just the A mode on my flash rather than TTL and that's completely independent of the camera's sensor.  The downside with A mode at least on my SF20 is that the settings are very coarse.  

 

I am quite good with TTL bounce flash on my Nikon cameras and also do a fare amount of manual flash for any portraits that I take.  I am not familiar with A mode and how it would work.  I assume that you set the shutter and aperture as well as ISO and let the flash figure it out from there, but I don't have a flash in front of me to recall what there is to set on A mode.  

 

Could you mount a Nikon flash on the Leica and use it's A mode?  

 

Is my assumption on how to use A mode correct?  If not might you supply me a primer?  

 

Thanks,

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"A mode" just means that the flash uses its own built-in sensor to know when to shutoff the flash output when good exposure has been reached.  Because it's not TTL, it would not know to account for things like if you have a filter mounted on the lens, for example.  For most situations it works well enough, and if you say a filter mounted you can always apply a bit +/- flash compensation.

 

In A mode, you will dial onto the flash the aperture and ISO the camera is currently set to; the flash doesn't need to know the shutter speed on the camera. But you need to make sure the shutter speed on the camera is less than the max sync speed (1/250s on the SL?).  If you don't need any flash compensation adjustments (say you are in a completely dark environment), then you can just shoot away.  If you do need any compensation (say you are doing daylight fill-flash, in which case I'd normally apply a -1.75 or -2 stop correction), then you just dial in the adjustment on the flash before shooting.  I usually do this through the ISO setting so I can do +/- 1/3 stop increments. (See my last post.)

 

The manual for the SF20 gives a pretty good description of how the A mode woks, starting on page 58.

 

http://www.summilux.net/documents/LeicaSF20.pdf

 

I am quite good with TTL bounce flash on my Nikon cameras and also do a fare amount of manual flash for any portraits that I take.  I am not familiar with A mode and how it would work.  I assume that you set the shutter and aperture as well as ISO and let the flash figure it out from there, but I don't have a flash in front of me to recall what there is to set on A mode.  

Could you mount a Nikon flash on the Leica and use it's A mode?  

 

Is my assumption on how to use A mode correct?  If not might you supply me a primer?  

 

Thanks,

Edited by cpclee
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