Flash performance very disappointing on the SL

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I thought I'd wait until I got my SF40 to make sure this is an issue. Unfortunately it is. The flash system on the SL is seriously broken and Leica need to put in a fix, fast. If you shoot with hotshoe flash I think you'll have to hold off on the SL for now.

 

These are my observations using a SF40, SF26 and 2xSF58's (fw 1.1 and 2.0)

 

1. Things appear to be normal in P and T modes. The flash fires as it should and exposures are fine (maybe a 1/3 stop under). However these modes are not available if you shoot M or R lenses.

 

2. In A mode the flash simply refuses to fire if the shutter speed is between 1/60 and 1/500 of a second. Are you serious Leica?? So you have no fill in flash throughout a significant range of shutter speeds in A mode.

 

3, M mode the shutter will fire at all shutter speeds. But as soon as you turn on the flash the exposure preview function for the EVF is disabled. So it's near impossible to visually judge a background exposure except by using the +/- in the EVF display. This totally negates the benefit of having an EVF.

 

So in short, if you have the 24-90 you'll get expected operation in T mode. If you use adapted M or r lenses you're flat out of luck.

 

I'm so incredibly disappointed by this. My main reason for spending $18,000 AUD was to get a better flash experience with the EVF than the M (sludgy with the grip/adaptor/plate setup). In my work I NEED to have an EVF and flash at the same time. Did no one at Leica or any of the several people involved with pre production cameras even put a flash on the hotshoe?

 

I accept that either my camera is faulty or there is a workaround I have missed. Has anybody with an SL and TTL flash got the camera to fire at all shutter speeds in AV mode? Or the EVF to display exposure preview with flash in M mode?

 

Gordon

 

 

[david strachan]

Leica and Flash....mmm..

Edited January 30, 2016 by david strachan

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Peter Walker]

 

3, M mode the shutter will fire at all shutter speeds. But as soon as you turn on the flash the exposure preview function for the EVF is disabled. So it's near impossible to visually judge a background exposure except by using the +/- in the EVF display. This totally negates the benefit of having an EVF.

 

Gordon

 

 

I have not yet done any flash photography with the SL but, when I got the SF40 last week, I did some playing and noticed that exposure preview is disabled.  But I assumed that was because the camera can not know the impact of the flash on the exposure and therefore doesn't want to mislead with the wrong preview.  TTL is not smart enough to predict the outcome.

 

Of course, it could show an ambient-light exposure preview but that's only going to tell you part of the story.

 

Regards

Peter

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I have not yet done any flash photography with the SL but, when I got the SF40 last week, I did some playing and noticed that exposure preview is disabled.  But I assumed that was because the camera can not know the impact of the flash on the exposure and therefore doesn't want to mislead with the wrong preview.  TTL is not smart enough to predict the outcome.

 

Of course, it could show an ambient-light exposure preview but that's only going to tell you part of the story.

 

Regards

Peter

 

This is true and if A mode worked properly I might be able to live with it. However, I don't like it when a cameras behaviour changes without me wanting it. If I don't want exposure preview in M mode with TTL I could turn exposure preview off. As it is I don't have any choice. And I know of no other mirrorless camera with this behaviour (I probably own most of them).

 

For me the number 1 reason for TTL flash is for outdoor fill flash. Currently with an M lens on the camera I either can't see the background exposure (one of the key benefits of an EVF) or the flash wont fire (A mode). Just bizarre.

 

Have you tried A mode? Does your SF40 fire when the shutter speed is around 1/100?

 

Gordon

Edited January 30, 2016 by FlashGordonPhotography

[ramarren]

This is true and if A mode worked properly I might be able to live with it. However, I don't like it when a cameras behaviour changes without me wanting it. If I don't want exposure preview in M mode with TTL I could turn exposure preview off. As it is I don't have any choice. And I know of no other mirrorless camera with this behaviour (I probably own most of them).

 

For me the number 1 reason for TTL flash is for outdoor fill flash. Currently with an M lens on the camera I either can't see the background exposure (one of the key benefits of an EVF) or the flash wont fire (A mode). Just bizarre.

 

Have you tried A mode? Does your SF40 fire when the shutter speed is around 1/100?

 

Gordon

 

 

Exposure preview mode causes almost all EVF cameras to have an unusable viewfinder when shooting with flash because the camera cannot evaluate the flash exposure until it happens—the viewfinder drops to nearly black most of the time. It is customary to turn it off with Olympus E-M1, E-PL7, Sony NEX and A7 series, and Panasonic Lumix G series cameras, in my experience, in order that you have a usable viewfinder with which to focus, frame, and make the exposure. 

 

For fill flash in sunlit circumstances, I use the Nikon SB-30 flash unit set to manual exposure at 1/8 to 1/16 output; I set the ambient exposure manually (typically at ISO 100-200), regardless of lens. That works just as well with the SL as it does with all the other cameras I've used it with, for the situations and distances that fill flash is useful for with my photography. 

[Peter Walker]

This is true and if A mode worked properly I might be able to live with it. However, I don't like it when a cameras behaviour changes without me wanting it. If I don't want exposure preview in M mode with TTL I could turn exposure preview off. As it is I don't have any choice. And I know of no other mirrorless camera with this behaviour (I probably own most of them).

 

For me the number 1 reason for TTL flash is for outdoor fill flash. Currently with an M lens on the camera I either can't see the background exposure (one of the key benefits of an EVF) or the flash wont fire (A mode). Just bizarre.

 

Have you tried A mode? Does your SF40 fire when the shutter speed is around 1/100?

 

Gordon

 

 

Hi Gordon,

 

I can see from your handle that getting flash right would be important to you!  

 

But, for now, with the SL and SF40, the flash function is not working right.

 

It doesn't always fire in P and A modes, seemingly when the camera decides that it does not want to use it.  I ran some quick tests outside in bright open shade and can only get the SF40 to fire for every shot in M and T mode.  I could not find precise shutter-speed settings that would cause it to not fire in the other modes but it didn't seem to like shutter-speeds faster than 1/25s.

 

In M mode, it always fired.  But, the TTL and Flash Exposure Compensation does not appear to work.  Neither the dial or the Flash Exposure Compensation in the SL menu seems to have any impact on the balance between ambient and flash.  Might need to play with this some more.

 

In T mode, the SF40 always fired (I think).  Flash Exposure Compensation does work, but only from the SL menu, not the flash unit's dial.  At a pinch, if you want fill-flash, you need to use T mode and adjust the shutter-speed to get the aperture you want.

 

Hopefully, the Leica engineers are working on these issues in a future firmware update.  

 

(I recommend that the Leica guys wait until the boss goes out, then sneak out and buy a Sony A7xxx and their Sony HVL-F32M TTL Flash, and just keep working on the firmware until the SL / SF40 work like the Sony, including the ability to dial Flash Exposure Compensation on the back of the flash.)

 

Regards

Peter

Edited January 30, 2016 by peterbkk

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Exposure preview mode causes almost all EVF cameras to have an unusable viewfinder when shooting with flash because the camera cannot evaluate the flash exposure until it happens—the viewfinder drops to nearly black most of the time. It is customary to turn it off with Olympus E-M1, E-PL7, Sony NEX and A7 series, and Panasonic Lumix G series cameras, in my experience, in order that you have a usable viewfinder with which to focus, frame, and make the exposure. 

 

For fill flash in sunlit circumstances, I use the Nikon SB-30 flash unit set to manual exposure at 1/8 to 1/16 output; I set the ambient exposure manually (typically at ISO 100-200), regardless of lens. That works just as well with the SL as it does with all the other cameras I've used it with, for the situations and distances that fill flash is useful for with my photography. 

 

 

I have never heard of that custom. Sorry I don't believe that, for a second. I have the EM1, A7, A7R, A7S, A7RII and A7II as well as three current Fujifilm bodies. I have the top available TTL flashes for each of those systems. TTL fill flash is essential for the way I work. Certainly the older the camera (like the EP1/2/3) the more delay there is but it's not that much on the current cameras and it's barely noticeable on the A7RII, A7II and Fuji XT1 (probably because of the evf refresh rate and newer faster processors). Even the antique XPro1 is totally usable although I can see the small delay on that camera. It has never been my custom to turn off exposure preview to use TTL flash outdoors. In fact I do exactly the opposite. I turn off exposure preview in reception rooms and for studio shoots where the EVF gain is useful. That's it. It's summer here and I'm shooting almost all my weddings and portrait sessions in bright daylight. All my other cameras do it. But the expensive one with the best EVF on the planet and the super processor fall flat on its butt.

 

It's all well and good to go to manual flash but that doesn't explain why the SL just won't fire a TTL flash in A mode above 1/30. It also doesn't explain why I don't get to choose whether I want exposure preview in M mode or not regardless of whether there might be some delay. No camera should change behaviour because you turn a flash on or off. As a working photographer I rely on my cameras to have consistent operation and that they do what i tell them to, not what they feel like doing.

 

Using a manual flash also takes away the possibility of HSS as no aftermarket systems support HSS for Leicas. I don't want to be forced to shoot stopped down if i don't want to. I don't have time during a wedding ceremony to worry about attaching an ND filter. That's why I bought a camera that's supposed to have TTL flash and HSS. If I wanted to shoot a system that doesn't have HSS I can take out my Fuji cameras.

 

For the record the SL does fire manual flashes and flash triggers in all modes at all speeds, just fine even above the flash sync speed. Things go south fast when you put a Leica flash on the Leica SL. It's broken. Simple as that. Just because someone doesn't need it or use it doesn't mean others don't. An advertised function of the camera is broken. I bought the SL because it is supposed to allow me an EVF and flash with leica M lenses without resorting to grips and brackets. These functions work just fine on the M by the way. If this is the correct behaviour why doesn't it function this way on the M system?

 

I think the real issue is that Leica just doesn't have any significant history as a company that integrates TTL flash as a serious part of the system. M users mostly either don't use flash or manual flash, mostly because until the SF40 every Leica TTL flash was a PITA on the M. S system is a much smaller base and many of those would gravitate to studio triggers and full manual flash set ups. So Leica and the people who got to test the SL and provide feedback are largely a group that doesn't use TTL flash and really don't understand how useful TTL flash is for some of us. So through all the testing and feedback TTL flash just didn't get looked at properly before the camera hit the streets.

 

Now Leica needs to admit it's broken and let us know there's a fix coming or I for one will be returning my SL as unfit for purpose, as much as I like the camera.

 

Gordon

 

Gordon

[thighslapper]

This is a re-run of the 'flash' posts for almost every digital camera Leica has produced.

 

I don't think any have worked to the satisfaction of regular flash users initially ..... and often ever ......

 

As you say Leica seem to have no interest and what appears to be zero expertise in TTL flash.

 

Most of us have just given up and resorted to manual set-ups and a selection of rules of thumb and trial and error....... but ......

 

.... as the SL is marketed as a mainstream Pro camera there is a fighting chance they will fix all this if there are enough moans and noise about it .....

[jaapv]

Well, they should take this report seriously if they want to market the camera as pro-level.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Well, they should take this report seriously if they want to market the camera as pro-level.

 

Well I penned a sincere email to the person i know at Leica Australia. It'll be interesting to see if there is any response from them next week.

 

I don't for a second think Leica don't care about fixing legitimate issues with the SL. I do think they need to broaden their testing base to a more varied type of photographer.

 

Gordon

[jaapv]

Please do mail Wetzlar as well with your credentials and complaint.

[ramarren]

...

Using a manual flash also takes away the possibility of HSS as no aftermarket systems support HSS for Leicas. I don't want to be forced to shoot stopped down if i don't want to. I don't have time during a wedding ceremony to worry about attaching an ND filter. That's why I bought a camera that's supposed to have TTL flash and HSS. If I wanted to shoot a system that doesn't have HSS I can take out my Fuji cameras.

 

For the record the SL does fire manual flashes and flash triggers in all modes at all speeds, just fine even above the flash sync speed. Things go south fast when you put a Leica flash on the Leica SL. It's broken. Simple as that. Just because someone doesn't need it or use it doesn't mean others don't. An advertised function of the camera is broken. I bought the SL because it is supposed to allow me an EVF and flash with leica M lenses without resorting to grips and brackets. These functions work just fine on the M by the way. If this is the correct behaviour why doesn't it function this way on the M system?

 

I think the real issue is that Leica just doesn't have any significant history as a company that integrates TTL flash as a serious part of the system. M users mostly either don't use flash or manual flash, mostly because until the SF40 every Leica TTL flash was a PITA on the M. S system is a much smaller base and many of those would gravitate to studio triggers and full manual flash set ups. So Leica and the people who got to test the SL and provide feedback are largely a group that doesn't use TTL flash and really don't understand how useful TTL flash is for some of us. So through all the testing and feedback TTL flash just didn't get looked at properly before the camera hit the streets.

...

 

 

Sorry to put you into a froth. Of course Leica should make the system work the way the specifications and instructions imply.

 

On the other hand, I'm a practical sort with this stuff ... If I had such needs for flash system integration/automation, I'd just stick with my Nikons where the flash system is outstanding. To me it's all a matter of priorities. I only rarely use flash, and usually in very controlled circumstances; even when I was doing events and such, I used flash only rarely, and very simply, because I don't like the look of it. 

 

But these are my predilections. I understand you feel otherwise. 

[LocalHero1953]

I agree that an email to Leica Wetzlar is more likely to gain attention than one to the local Leica office, especially when it is as clearly expressed as this, from someone who knows what they're talking about.

 

And frankly I don't see the value of posts that just say "Oh I would have done it differently". If it's meant to work, and you are using it for normal, practical applications, then it's meant to work.

[ramarren]

...And frankly I don't see the value of posts that just say "Oh I would have done it differently". If it's meant to work, and you are using it for normal, practical applications, then it's meant to work.

 

 

The intent of relating other ways of getting the job done isn't to say "you're doing it wrong", it's to say, "well, it's supposed to do this but it doesn't, however you can get the job done that way instead"—that is, provide an alternative workflow that achieves the result. It's intended to be helpful. 

 

Not all machines are perfect or do precisely what they ought to do by the spec or the book. But humans are adaptable and can work around machine deficiencies. In general, my personal approach to getting things done is to try to use the machines as they are designed, and when that fails, work out how to get what I want done in spite of their deficiencies. I rarely see much value in complaining about the fact that the machines don't do precisely what I want all the time—my intent is to make the photographs I want regardless of whether my camera is operating perfectly according to its specs and instructions. It's the photographs that mean something important to me, not whether the camera is perfect. 

[LocalHero1953]

The OP's track record on this forum shows that he is neither a Leica sycophant, nor a troll (and doesn't really need me to defend him). But this thread is not about the best way of taking shots with flash, which I suspect the OP understands better than either of us - it's about clear failure in basic functionality, and whether/how this can be raised sufficiently high on Leica's agenda that they do something about it.

 

Can we bypass the issue of alternative ways of working with flash, and return to the problem highlighted by the OP?

[ramarren]

I feel these problems have been stated precisely about 20 times now in this and a half-dozen other threads. I'll no longer bother reading this thread if it's just going to re-hash the same stuff over and over again. State the problems you've found, send a note to Wetzlar, encourage others to do the same ... what more needs to be said? 

 

I'm much more interested in ways to work around problems and get to making photographs than about iterating on what the problems are. 

[wlaidlaw]

Leica has been aware of this problem since I had a meeting with Leica UK in early December. It was originally hoped that this might only be a problem with legacy flashes (SF24, 26 and 58) but once the 40 came out, it was apparent that it was a general camera problem. It IS disappointing that Leica have given so little attention to flash performance, that they allowed this to be released in the current state. I had a 64 on order but have now cancelled it as it will not work in the way that TTL should be able to work, in fixed ISO and Aperture Priority and would be no better than either my 24 and 58.

 

Please tell Steffen Skopp at Leica, Wetzlar about this problem (first name dot second name at leica-camera.com works for most internal email addresses). The more people that complain about the non-functional flash coupling, the higher priority Leica will assign to fixing it with a firmware update. As Japp says, it is not good enough to release a "professional camera" with a wholly inadequate flash performance. Many working professionals use flash for a high percentage of their output (weddings, studio, school etc). 

 

Wilson

[jaapv]

The intent of relating other ways of getting the job done isn't to say "you're doing it wrong", it's to say, "well, it's supposed to do this but it doesn't, however you can get the job done that way instead"—that is, provide an alternative workflow that achieves the result. It's intended to be helpful. 

 

Not all machines are perfect or do precisely what they ought to do by the spec or the book. But humans are adaptable and can work around machine deficiencies. In general, my personal approach to getting things done is to try to use the machines as they are designed, and when that fails, work out how to get what I want done in spite of their deficiencies. I rarely see much value in complaining about the fact that the machines don't do precisely what I want all the time—my intent is to make the photographs I want regardless of whether my camera is operating perfectly according to its specs and instructions. It's the photographs that mean something important to me, not whether the camera is perfect. 

That goes for you - and me - but a working professional photographer has to deliver the the goods and has no use for workarounds if he can avoid it. Speaking as a professional in another discipline - the tool should get out of the way and allow me to do the job.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Sorry to put you into a froth. Of course Leica should make the system work the way the specifications and instructions imply.

 

On the other hand, I'm a practical sort with this stuff ... If I had such needs for flash system integration/automation, I'd just stick with my Nikons where the flash system is outstanding. To me it's all a matter of priorities. I only rarely use flash, and usually in very controlled circumstances; even when I was doing events and such, I used flash only rarely, and very simply, because I don't like the look of it. 

 

But these are my predilections. I understand you feel otherwise. 

 

No froth from me. Just continuing a discussion on friendly terms, as you were. Everyone's opinion is equally valid to me. My needs and wants from a system are my own and I am just expressing those. I saw no ill intent from your posts.

 

I too am using other systems where I can rely on them, while I'd prefer to be shooting the SL. Sony's flash system, while not quite where Nikon is also very good but the skin tones need more work than I would like. I work in an environment where flash is almost mandatory. Natural light here is very harsh and brides like to get married outdoors. I'd rather be shooting the SL as I prefer the skin tones out of camera. The current Fujis don't support HSS (the new XPro2 does) but have superb skin tones. I can get both with the M but the set up is a bit thrown together and the M with grip/base/TTL cabe and SF 58 does not handle well. I hoped the SL would be like the M but with better balance when using a flash.

 

Gordon

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[FlashGordonPhotography]

The intent of relating other ways of getting the job done isn't to say "you're doing it wrong", it's to say, "well, it's supposed to do this but it doesn't, however you can get the job done that way instead"—that is, provide an alternative workflow that achieves the result. It's intended to be helpful. 

 

Not all machines are perfect or do precisely what they ought to do by the spec or the book. But humans are adaptable and can work around machine deficiencies. In general, my personal approach to getting things done is to try to use the machines as they are designed, and when that fails, work out how to get what I want done in spite of their deficiencies. I rarely see much value in complaining about the fact that the machines don't do precisely what I want all the time—my intent is to make the photographs I want regardless of whether my camera is operating perfectly according to its specs and instructions. It's the photographs that mean something important to me, not whether the camera is perfect. 

 

I absolutely agree with you. And this is where I think a proper experienced photographer might have an advantage over some kid who wants to hang up a shingle and call themselves professional. I've been a working photographer for a long time now and things do go wrong and all equipment has limitations. I think I know most every workaround I need in the field and I certainly do need to get stuff going on the fly. If I shoot my Fuji XPro1, I know I only don't have HSS. I know the focus speed is slower than my other cameras. It's expected behaviour for the camera. If I use my SonyA7II I know that I can't manually switch between the EVF and LCD without diving into the menus. I know I need to have a few batteries in my pocket for a days shooting.

 

The issue is that with the SL this isn't normal behaviour. I shouldn't have to work around it and wouldn't if the camera worked properly. I've brought this issue up before but then I was using SF58's, which may or may not be fully compatible. Now I have the SF40 I am reporting that it's not the flashes it's the camera. And before I write to everyone at Leica, I thought I's report here, see if it's just me or a real problem and have a bit of a rant/vent.

 

Gordon