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Jared

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I did the unthinkable last night... I used the Leica SL and 24-90 for an "event" rather than my trusty Nikon.  Specifically, I took three or four hundred head shots of the fifty cast members of my daughter's school musical.  That meant trusting the SL's autofocus.  Trusting the EVF.  Trusting the SL to run three off camera speed lights via wireless trigger. Trusting that it had the battery life it would need.  No problems whatsoever!  It all went off without a hitch.  I won't post any of the images for privacy reasons, but I couldn't be happier.  Even with horrific, faint, fluorescent ambient lighting (entryway to the school's auditorium).  Even with fifty cast members who had mostly forgotten it was picture day and so weren't ready--hair not brushed, clothes not tidy, etc.

 

I wouldn't have tried an event like this with the M.  Head shots for two or three people?  Sure.  But fifty?  In one hour?  No way!  I would never have trusted that my hit rate on focus would be high enough, or that I could accurately compose fast enough.  This is the first Leica I have owned that could handle a professional type of workflow like this.  Now if only they could roll out the wireless tethering so I could review the images on-site...

 

Finally I can get rid of the Nikon--no reason to keep running my "trusty" camera system and my "fun" camera system.

 

- Jared

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Trusting the SL to run three off camera speed lights via wireless trigger.

 

 

- Jared

Can you give us more detail on the flash system and wireless trigger that you used. Which trigger system? What flash units? How did you set the SL in terms of triggering and exposure?

 

Regards

Peter

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Can you give us more detail on the flash system and wireless trigger that you used. Which trigger system? What flash units? How did you set the SL in terms of triggering and exposure?

 

Regards

Peter

 

 

Sure.  I was using an SF24D to add some highlights to hair, an SF 58 as the key light, and an SF 40 for fill.  Frankly, though, any flashes would have worked since they were all in "manual" mode.  Well, almost any flash.  An SF 26 wouldn't have helped since it is TTL only.  The flash trigger was a Phottix Strato II--the Nikon version since Nikon and Leica share the same pin arrangement.  I only have two receivers, so the SF 40 was actually in slave mode rather than working off a wireless receiver.  

 

I used a reflector for the key light (a disc) and used a diffuser for the fill.  Only issue I ran into with this setup was that the ambient light was so weak pupils were a lot more dilated than I would have liked.  Not much color from the iris.  That's not exactly the fault of the flash units, though.  I suppose I could have solved that issue with a hot light, but I don't have one.  I had a bit more glare than I would have liked off foreheads and noses, but that's just because the kids were coming straight from rehearsal and they were all "glowing" a bit from being under the stage lights.

 

I expect any speed lights would have worked equally well.  I bought the SF24D years ago to work as a fill flash for the M when out and about under bright sunlight.  It is a terrible unit, and I would never recommend it.  I bought the SF 58 to replace the SF24D, but I have never used it all that much because it was so poorly balanced on a small camera like the M.  I bought the SF 40 thinking I will use it in most cases rather than the SF 58.  It's great, but there are a couple of firmware bugs in the SL that keep it from working quite as intended in aperture priority mode, but I expect that will get worked out eventually.  In all other respects it seems like a great flash.

 

Who'd have thought it?  A studio session with a Leica professional camera?

 

- Jared

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Adding ... I've been successful operating the SL with two lights and a Cactus V5 three-unit transceiver set, four lights using the same setup and a pair of Paterson flat panel flashes triggered by the other two lights, and two-three lights using combinations of a Nikon SB-30, Cactus V2 transmitter/receiver, and the same two Paterson flat panels. 

 

All manual, easy to set up exposure using a hand-held flash meter and a couple of test pops. 

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  • 1 year later...

Actually the Phottix Strato II transmitter has a TTL pass through and if you use a Leica flash as the main flash on the transmitter it seems to work in TTL. On the receiver you will still need to set the flash as manual.

 

I just tested with a Leica SF40 as main with bounce and a cheapo flash as slave in M mode.

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This mindset (the initial OP's "fun camera" statement) is unfortunately Leica's curse. This is by no means OP's fault, rather, a common perception of Leica cameras being nothing more than expensive toys. From the ground up SL was created as a professional system. There is no reason whatsoever not to trust its AF, or EVF, or anything else for that matter. In terms of its user and professional features, SL is not just up there with the big guns, it is one of them.

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Yes, it's clear Leica wants to be thought of as a viable option for professionals for their paid assignments, not just for their personal work. The camera itself is certainly suitable, but they still have a lot of work to do in terms of the overall system and in terms of the support infrastructure before they could hope to be thought of as a viable option for most working pro's.

 

Specifically, the strobe capabilities need to improve dramatically. The lens options need to get filled in. For many types of photography, phase detection autofocus will need to be added (to allow predictive AF with moving subjects). And, most importantly, a professional support team with loaner equipment will need to be added. The camera itself is a great starting point, but the infrastructure just isn't there to support a working pro.

 

As to my pleasant surprise that this camera could actually take on even an unpaid assignment like this one... There aren't exactly a lot of examples one can point to of pro's using Leica equipment with artificial lighting, and until the SL and 'Q', Leica's track record with regard to snappy and accurate autofocus was far from good.

 

I'm happy with my Leica equipment, but were I a professional rather than an amateur I doubt I would be able to choose it yet. Depends on the type of photography, of course, but I think they still have a way to go.

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I did the unthinkable last night... I used the Leica SL and 24-90 for an "event" rather than my trusty Nikon.  Specifically, I took three or four hundred head shots of the fifty cast members of my daughter's school musical.  That meant trusting the SL's autofocus.  Trusting the EVF.  Trusting the SL to run three off camera speed lights via wireless trigger. Trusting that it had the battery life it would need.  No problems whatsoever!  It all went off without a hitch.  I won't post any of the images for privacy reasons, but I couldn't be happier.  Even with horrific, faint, fluorescent ambient lighting (entryway to the school's auditorium).  Even with fifty cast members who had mostly forgotten it was picture day and so weren't ready--hair not brushed, clothes not tidy, etc.

 

I wouldn't have tried an event like this with the M.  Head shots for two or three people?  Sure.  But fifty?  In one hour?  No way!  I would never have trusted that my hit rate on focus would be high enough, or that I could accurately compose fast enough.  This is the first Leica I have owned that could handle a professional type of workflow like this.  Now if only they could roll out the wireless tethering so I could review the images on-site...

 

Finally I can get rid of the Nikon--no reason to keep running my "trusty" camera system and my "fun" camera system.

 

- Jared

 

 

Congrats on your successful shoot! 

 

I wouldn't get rid of your trusty Nikon system just yet.  Sometimes it may come in handy.  I too run multiple systems (X1D, Phase One XF), as well as Nikon (D810, soon to be D850).  I admit, the SL is a much more fun camera to use and I love using it.  So for the past month have only been using that.  So I brought it to Greece and on the last day, the SL 24-90 mm got stuck at 90 mm.  I'm sure it can happen to any lens, but with Leica, I am never sure about reliability.  This caused me to miss some shots in Greece, and more importantly also in NYC on 9/11 when I was there to shoot the twin tower lights from a helicopter. 

 

I shoot with Profoto strobes most of the time and just find Nikon more of a complete system, in regards to using lighting, native lens, and reliability.  Also, in some instances, having the 36 mp of my D810 would have made a difference over the 24 mp of the SL. 

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This mindset (the initial OP's "fun camera" statement) is unfortunately Leica's curse. This is by no means OP's fault, rather, a common perception of Leica cameras being nothing more than expensive toys. From the ground up SL was created as a professional system. There is no reason whatsoever not to trust its AF, or EVF, or anything else for that matter. In terms of its user and professional features, SL is not just up there with the big guns, it is one of them.

 

Comparisons is always inevitable  even measuring performance in fractions of a second. It's the same for myself.

 

I'm okay with the fact the SL's performance in some areas isn't the equal to that of the top of line Canons and Nikons and Leica does have an image issue. Nonetheless everyone needs to sieve out what's important to them. It's good that we have the Leica SL with the qualities and strengths it's been designed with.

 

It's sorta like the M8 for me. I never would have considered using an M for commercial work or events until I had to face the inadequate precision of Canon's wide angles. Professionals need to seasoning and problems to solve before coming to a reasoned solution that puts certain qualities as foremost. Just telling people that Leica is a professional system is unlikely to make an impact on the internet today.

 

It just takes time and will for Leica to do this effectively. Canon has upped their quality control and other features which took away my original reasons to use an M8. And Canon, Nikon are great companies determined to keep status quo.

Edited by lx1713
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I'll be interested to see where the new Leica CEO tries to take the company.  Probably not a big shift considering he was already the board member in charge of marketing, sales, retail, and communications, but you never know.  The real question in my mind is what are they going to try to do with the SL/TL conundrum.  Is the R&D effort going to go into building out a professional system to compete with Canon, Nikon and, frankly, Sony?  Or is it going to go into the TL platform and lenses--try to win over customers who are comfortable with the iPhone as their camera right now, but maybe want the capabilities and flexibility of a system camera with a larger sensor?  Frankly, it could go either way, but I doubt Leica has the wherewithal to pursue both paths.  The "Clooney" (code name) camera may give us some clues.  Will it simply be a TL2 with an integrated, moderate resolution EVF built in?  Or will it be a scaled down SL of some sort with more traditional controls but utilizing the smaller, lighter TL lenses and the new 24 megapixel APS-C chip? Frankly, I suspect it's the former, but we'll see.

 

Yes, Leica long since gave up whatever reputation they had as the choice of professional photographers.  Now they have enough revenue and enough profits that they can re-shape themselves a bit and determine what part of the market they are going to pursue.  I suspect it's the evolution of the iPhone photographer rather than the existing professional that is most attractive to them.  

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It is indeed opportunistic & yet challenging for Leica in the road up ahead. The big volume players such as Nikon & Canon will continue to have their market share taken away as they continue to be conservative. The prosumer Micro fourthird market grew rapid over the past decade taking away shares from both Nikon & Canon but looks under threat from the smart phones now that smart phone makers start to improve image taking capabilities as new value added features to antise buyers caused they run out of new ideas in other area. The currently market expansion strategy of new product development (SL/TL) to venture into the professional & prosumer market while maintaining the niche M rangefinder product line is clearly seen. So to succeed in the professional product line would be critical. Let's hope they have enough speed to introduce changes, as of now, their rate of change is still too slow to gain themselves of any competitive advantage. An example would be the recent reply I'd received from Leica about wireless flash trigger development that I had shared in another post showed their seriousness and effort but are deemed slow since other manufacturers already have such support for their products more than 5 yrs earlier while Leica struggles to play catch up.

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Leica is not competing in the professional market if you define professional as shooting for income.

 

They are competing in the same market as the Hasselblad X1D. High cost, high margin, low volume equipment that sells to those who are looking for the brand image, the haptics, and other attributes not found on spec sheets. IQ is also very high.

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In a world dominated by mass production, it's a dollars game in the long haul. Leica can't really make a difference on the basis of being better purely on optics. Canon and Nikon took decades to build whole systems, professional performance & support, targeted markets for their market dominance which is not dependent on sheer image quality. We are all past that "good enough" stage in many parts of the world.

 

Unlike many I think Nikon and Canon is doing a fine job. Mirrorless is really just catching up. Many of the features (not all) in mirrorless are really to compensate or match the skills or toolsets of professionals. I'm enjoying the benefits of mirrorless of course but they don't really solve new problems for the professionals. I'm sure many can point out  the use cases but for every problem, there's dozens of solutions. The only real limits is the time given to deploy a solution. Both Canon and Nikon knows the game is changing, screaming at them won't change the situation. Nor is screaming at Leica to hurry up  :D

 

If you look purely in terms of in-depth tool ergonomics; Systems like Canon, Nikon, Sony and Leica can co-exist at the top of line hierarchy because each appeals to a different mindset. Brand allegiance is really for amateurs. The problem lies in the dollars available to sustain each brand. Who is likely to be profitable in the long run?

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I'll be interested to see where the new Leica CEO tries to take the company.  Probably not a big shift considering he was already the board member in charge of marketing, sales, retail, and communications, but you never know.  The real question in my mind is what are they going to try to do with the SL/TL conundrum.  Is the R&D effort going to go into building out a professional system to compete with Canon, Nikon and, frankly, Sony?  Or is it going to go into the TL platform and lenses--try to win over customers who are comfortable with the iPhone as their camera right now, but maybe want the capabilities and flexibility of a system camera with a larger sensor?  Frankly, it could go either way, but I doubt Leica has the wherewithal to pursue both paths.  The "Clooney" (code name) camera may give us some clues.  Will it simply be a TL2 with an integrated, moderate resolution EVF built in?  Or will it be a scaled down SL of some sort with more traditional controls but utilizing the smaller, lighter TL lenses and the new 24 megapixel APS-C chip? Frankly, I suspect it's the former, but we'll see.

 

Yes, Leica long since gave up whatever reputation they had as the choice of professional photographers.  Now they have enough revenue and enough profits that they can re-shape themselves a bit and determine what part of the market they are going to pursue.  I suspect it's the evolution of the iPhone photographer rather than the existing professional that is most attractive to them.  

Actually, the group of professional photographers is too small to be considered a major market. It goes for all brands - the money is with the amateurs, the pros are great to have on board for marketing reasons - but one only needs a few prestigious ones - like Magnum for Leica.

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Actually, the group of professional photographers is too small to be considered a major market. It goes for all brands - the money is with the amateurs, the pros are great to have on board for marketing reasons - but one only needs a few prestigious ones - like Magnum for Leica.

 

Oh dear, true, of course but oh dear  :D

 

We will see it in the course of how the more niche accessories and tools actually flourish, if at all.

 

I was sort of lost in the fact that the SL is quite a heavy lump for most amateurs these days compared to say an Olympus and forgot the halo effect. I wouldn't part with the 24-90 even for a bag of primes hence the presumption. Oh dear, reality.

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Specifically, the strobe capabilities need to improve dramatically. The lens options need to get filled in. For many types of photography, phase detection autofocus will need to be added (to allow predictive AF with moving subjects). And, most importantly, a professional support team with loaner equipment will need to be added. The camera itself is a great starting point, but the infrastructure just isn't there to support a working pro.

 

 

In using SL professionally for more than a year now I have yet to encounter a situation where an on-camera flash would be necessary. For studio work it is as good as anything else: all you need is a hot shoe. I routinely take pictures of classical ballet dancers in not-so-well-lit places including high jumps. Success rate with the SL is 95% using single AF/single shot mode. It is all about a very simple set of skills that makes it possible to use a professional camera with the best image quality on the market. Not to mention, in a matter of 5 minutes I can reconfigure the camera for broadcast quality video recording.

 

There is professional support, and there are loaners available, at least here in the US. Speaking of which...  As I am writing this, Leica is offering any camera (including S and SL) for a day for free at Photoville, right under the Brooklyn Bridge.

Edited by Irakly Shanidze
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Actually, the group of professional photographers is too small to be considered a major market. It goes for all brands - the money is with the amateurs, the pros are great to have on board for marketing reasons - but one only needs a few prestigious ones - like Magnum for Leica.

 

That's right. In film days the main difference in purchasing habits between amateurs and pros was that the former used to spent as much money annually on lenses and cameras as the latter would spend on film. Now there is no film, and even though professional digital cameras cost dozens of times more than their film predecessors used to be, pros still spend less money on equipment than amateurs on average. However, professional audience is important not only for marketing purposes. Just like with any technical field (think Formula 1 racing), it is the professionals that drive R&D, as they have the most rigorous demands. Look how "professional" features trickle down to prosumer and further to amateur models in the end making photography a better experience (unfortunately, not necessarily warranting better outcomes :) )

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