FILCA A, B and C, Where's D

[new2leica]

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Thanks Alan. The first three from the left look like the FILCA B as they have the type of flexible clip at the top which that model has. The item on the right does not appear to have such a clip as is also the case with the FILCA C- see my photo at the top of this thread. The FILCA C has the same gate type opening as the A and B, whereas the D appears to have a narrow slit with a felt lining as illustrated in Vith and Lager.  The FILCA C is one of the rarest of all Leica accessories and my two are the only ones I have ever seen. It would be nice to see one in the hands of another collector. As for the FILCA D, I would like to see one that was manufactured by Leitz. Perhaps the one shown by Pecole and marked Agfa-Leica is that item.

 

Some of my FILCAs carry the Leitz name but most do not. As for the protrusions on the base I will go through my collection of FILCAs and will report back if any exist.

 

I have five or six of the metal canisters as well the fibre double canister which fits in a compartment in the early ETRIN case for the I Model A.

 

William

 

 

As you have two, auction one off and you'll get your wish! 

[alan mcfall]

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Saw these old leitz items on ebay. Maybe this is the "D" cassette you are searching for, if it is even a Leitz item.

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[schattenundlicht]

I just came across an interesting, if somewhat boastful, article on how the new industry standard of Kodak film cans affected not only Leica users but also Contax users (e.g. Capa).

 

http://www.nearbycafe.com/artandphoto/photocritic/2015/05/17/guest-post-16-rob-mcelroy-on-robert-capa-2-a/

[pico]

I just came across an interesting, if somewhat boastful, article on how the new industry standard of Kodak film cans affected not only Leica users but also Contax users (e.g. Capa).

 

http://www.nearbycafe.com/artandphoto/photocritic/2015/05/17/guest-post-16-rob-mcelroy-on-robert-capa-2-a/

 

What motive could there have been for the misrepresentation by John G. Morris?

[willeica]

Revisionism is always dangerous, particularly in the absence of absolute proof. It is possible, though, that the same cassette length problems which affected Leica cameras also affected Contax cameras. Where that leaves the melting emulsion story, I don't know. I have looked at the Magnum contact sheets book and yes, the sprocket holes are on a number of negatives. Whether this was caused by melting or sliding emulsion or cassette length (the more likely cause) is, to my mind, irrelevant 73 years later. All we know is that a brave (some would say foolish) war photographer captured some very dramatic shots of one of the most eventful days of World War II. The rest, as they say in all the best storylines, is history.

 

William

[schattenundlicht]

Doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe we are missing some background story. Or maybe an iconic heroe's image had to be kept pristine, and admitting to accidentally opening the wrong camera in daylight, ruining most of your precious film, was simply out of the question. Mere speculation. Edit: and, as rightfully pointed out, rather irrelevant.

 

(By the way, I accidentally mis-posted in the wrong thread due to iPhone and moderate presbyopia my post was supposed to go into the "II (D) Negative Misalignment" thread. Sorry.

Edited November 14, 2017 by schattenundlicht

[Doug A]

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I just came across an interesting, if somewhat boastful, article on how the new industry standard of Kodak film cans affected not only Leica users but also Contax users (e.g. Capa).

 

The description of the Kodak 235 and 435 size films in the article is just plain wrong. They were not intended for daylight loading of the camera, but rather for daylight loading of a FILCA cassette, or the Contax equivalent. Their use is described in the Instructions for Models - Standard, IIIa & 250 and Accessories. If the article is so poorly researched in this respect I see no reason to take any of the rest of it seriously. 

[schattenundlicht]

The description of the Kodak 235 and 435 size films in the article is just plain wrong. They were not intended for daylight loading of the camera, but rather for daylight loading of a FILCA cassette, or the Contax equivalent. Their use is described in the Instructions for Models - Standard, IIIa & 250 and Accessories. If the article is so poorly researched in this respect I see no reason to take any of the rest of it seriously.

I did not want to endorse this article in any way, I just found it an interesting read (not with regard to the self-acclaimed rewriting of photographic history but because of the negative misalignment problem that brought me to that page in the first place).

[UliWer]

I just came across an interesting, if somewhat boastful, article on how the new industry standard of Kodak film cans affected not only Leica users but also Contax users (e.g. Capa).

http://www.nearbycafe.com/artandphoto/photocritic/2015/05/17/guest-post-16-rob-mcelroy-on-robert-capa-2-a/

Thank you very much for the link to the very interesting article!

 

I don‘t know how it was with the pre-war Contax model used by Capa - I don‘t have one.

 

Though for some days I am the proud owner of a Contax IIa vom 1953/54. And I just tried to fit a Leica B cassette into the Contax IIa - it does not fit as it is some millimeters too long. The IIa was a postwar reconstruction of the Contax - somewhat smaller than the prewar II.

 

The user‘s manual of the IIa still mentions the Contax-spool - though much more concise than the very explicit description in the manual of the prewar II - , but doesn‘t say anything about a change in size for different spools. The illustration in the link shows that the spool for the prewar II used by Capa was considerably longer - I guess it had the same size as the Leica model B.

 

So it might be interesting to know wether the room for the spools was reduced for the postwar Contax while the Leica bodies still maintained the larger space for larger spools - which caused the misalignment issue when you use a smaller modern film cassette

Edited November 14, 2017 by UliWer

[Doug A]

I did not want to endorse this article in any way, I just found it an interesting read (not with regard to the self-acclaimed rewriting of photographic history but because of the negative misalignment problem that brought me to that page in the first place).

 

I understood that, and didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

 

It's interesting that the creators of the original story/myth didn't understand the reason for the sprocket holes in the image. I remember discussing the issue at least 50 years ago with my father when we were comparing some of his pre-WWII Leica III negatives with my later Leica IIIf negatives.

[romualdo]

The description of the Kodak 235 and 435 size films in the article is just plain wrong. They were not intended for daylight loading of the camera, but rather for daylight loading of a FILCA cassette, or the Contax equivalent. Their use is described in the Instructions for Models - Standard, IIIa & 250 and Accessories. If the article is so poorly researched in this respect I see no reason to take any of the rest of it seriously. 

Thanks for that correction - that didn't make sense to me when I initially read the article (before your comments)

Do like the descriptive definition though "Sprocket-hole Misregistration"

Never knew Orkin's "American Girl In Italy" was one of these negs

[pico]

I have lived through the crappy cassette era. Regardless of defects, I find no reason whatsoever to divert the cause from poorly designed cassettes. WTF? Why did they not just tell it as it was?

Edited November 15, 2017 by pico

[schattenundlicht]

Thanks TomB_tx and new2leica for your helpful advice. I was beginning to think that the FILCA D was even more rare than the FILCA C. The most common one seems to be the FILCA B. Based on the contemporary Leica catalogues and camera manuals from the mid to late 1930s, it seems that if you walked into a Leica dealer at that time and asked for a re-loadable film cassette you would have been given the Type B rather than the Type D. I have seen one reloadable cassette sold on ebay called the Leitz-Agfa film cassette which resembles the FILCA D, as described in Vith's book. I had noted that Lager had quoted from Vith's book and I will seek out a copy. The search continues.

 

William

I have sourced a copy of the book „25 Jahre Leica Historica“ yesterday, which starts with Angela von Einem‘s article on the Leica IA. This article, however, also covers a lot of accessories. On page 36 she states as caption to a photograph of three cassettes:

 

„Abb. 54 - Kassette D = Leitz-Agfa Samtkassette, links erste Form“

=

Fig. 54 - Cassette D = Leitz-Agfa velvet cassette, left first version“.

 

The corresponding paragraph in the text reads (my translation):

 

„D:

Introduced as Leitz-Agfa velvet cassette on 1st of July 1931 (fig. 54). For this cassette, the locking bridge had to be changed (fig. 29, as well as 9 and 28). The new locking bridge was supplied to all Leica owners free of charge.“

 

Thus the elusive „D“ really seems to be the „Agfa“.

 

Kind regards

Mathias

[schattenundlicht]

and according to von Einem, the „C“ definitely is the rarest (rough translation by me):

 

„C:

This cassette was available for only a few months in 1931, but then in three variations. It was a cassette that could only be loaded in the darkroom. It did not have a knob, because it remained closed in the camera. To avoid the film being scratched, the leading edge of the inner tube was machined, for the film to glide only on the perforated edges.“

[willeica]

and according to von Einem, the „C“ definitely is the rarest (rough translation by me):

 

„C:

This cassette was available for only a few months in 1931, but then in three variations. It was a cassette that could only be loaded in the darkroom. It did not have a knob, because it remained closed in the camera. To avoid the film being scratched, the leading edge of the inner tube was machined, for the film to glide only on the perforated edges.“

 

I have two of the very rare C cassettes. I have never seen any other than the two that I have. As for the D, I have never seen one of those, but there is a Agfa-Leitz cassette which looks just like it. What happened next was that pre-loaded cassettes hit the market and over time a lot of people dropped the idea of messing around with bulk film. By far the most common FILCA is the B model.

 

William

[schattenundlicht]

I have two of the very rare C cassettes. I have never seen any other than the two that I have. As for the D, I have never seen one of those, but there is a Agfa-Leitz cassette which looks just like it. What happened next was that pre-loaded cassettes hit the market and over time a lot of people dropped the idea of messing around with bulk film. By far the most common FILCA is the B model.

 

William

The B must have been advantageous from a practical point of view, otherwise they would not have modeled the later IXMOO on it.

[Leicapasion]

I have two of the very rare C cassettes. I have never seen any other than the two that I have. As for the D, I have never seen one of those, but there is a Agfa-Leitz cassette which looks just like it. What happened next was that pre-loaded cassettes hit the market and over time a lot of people dropped the idea of messing around with bulk film. By far the most common FILCA is the B model.

 

William

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[willeica]

 

I have two of the very rare C cassettes. I have never seen any other than the two that I have. As for the D, I have never seen one of those, but there is a Agfa-Leitz cassette which looks just like it. What happened next was that pre-loaded cassettes hit the market and over time a lot of people dropped the idea of messing around with bulk film. By far the most common FILCA is the B model.

 

William

 

 

One of my two Cs is shown in the first post in this thread. That is 3 we have traced now.

 

 

The B must have been advantageous from a practical point of view, otherwise they would not have modeled the later IXMOO on it.

 

The B was the model that was most available during the period when pre-loaded cassettes were not available. Therefore, a reasonable number of photographers were familiar it, making it a logical basis for the IXMOO.

 

I still have not seen a D as illustrated in the Leica Handbuch of 1933. The D is not only like the Agfa-Leitz cassettes, it also resembles most later pre-loaded cassettes. I also have a similar (to the D) plastic Kodak re-loadable cassette which is illustrated above. 

 

William

[jc_braconi]

In VIDOM # 108 a superb article by Markus J. Richter 13 pages 37 pictures

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[romualdo]

In VDOM # 108 a superb article by Markus J. Richter 13 pages 37 pictures

excuse my ignorance but what publication is VDOM? (presume it's an acronym)