willeica Posted January 22, 2016 Share #1 Posted January 22, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) I mentioned my, largely accidental, collection of FILCA film cassettes in my recent article, posted on this forum, about Leica cameras from the 1930s. I currently have 1 Type A, about 12 Type Bs and 2 Type Cs, but no Type D. Here are examples of the 3 types that I have: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Jim Lager, in his excellent Illustrated History of Leica Accessories published in 1998, said that he had never inspected an example of the FILCA C in 30 years of searching. Now that I have 2 examples of the FILCA C, I want to complete the set with a FILCA D and that is the real focus of this post. Here is the relevant page from Lager's book: The main difficulty I am having is fully understanding what Jim Lager says and reconciling that with what I have found in Leica manuals and catalogues from the 1930s. The Lager book says that one of the reasons why the FILCA C is so rare is that Leica introduced it and dropped it soon after the II Model D appeared. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the situation, but I had thought that the C was replaced by the Type D. I have found, however, that Leica catalogues up to 1938 say that the available replacement/additional FILCA was the Type B. The same is the case with any Leica manuals I have looked at from the 1930s (latest is for the III from 1937). They all refer to the FILCA B and give instructions for loading and handling that cassette type. Starting with a Leica II Model D manual date January 1933 there is a reference to the Agfa Leica film cassette which, according to the manual, is for one time use only. The manual refers to the need to change the lock at the bottom of the film chamber in order to use the new type of cassette. Lager also shows the new type of lock. Later manuals also contain such details and include references to similar cassettes from Kodak, Perutz etc. These are referred to as cassettes for daylight loading and unloading and for one time use only. In one manual a warning is given about re-loading and repeated use of such cassettes in the same manner as spool chambers, as the practice involved the risk of damage to the film and the shutter. Nowhere in the contemporary literature can I find a reference to a re-loadable Leica FILCA Type D. Reading between the lines it seems that between 1933 and 1937 over the counter 35mm rolls became available and commonplace. The 1935 film box which I got with a Leica IIIa (see my article re 1930s Leicas) did contain a plastic re-loadable Kodak film cassette shown below: This looks to me more like a product from the 1950s rather than the 1930s. It does, however, resemble the illustration of the FILCA Type D shown in Lager's book I would appreciate some enlightenment from forum members about whether they have seen a reloadable film cassette designated FILCA D made by Leica. The impression I have is that Leica went quickly from the FILCA D back to the FILCA B and, soon after that, the one time use cassette began to take off in the market. If the FILCA D does exist I would, of course, like to get one as an avid collector. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Jim Lager, in his excellent Illustrated History of Leica Accessories published in 1998, said that he had never inspected an example of the FILCA C in 30 years of searching. Now that I have 2 examples of the FILCA C, I want to complete the set with a FILCA D and that is the real focus of this post. Here is the relevant page from Lager's book: The main difficulty I am having is fully understanding what Jim Lager says and reconciling that with what I have found in Leica manuals and catalogues from the 1930s. The Lager book says that one of the reasons why the FILCA C is so rare is that Leica introduced it and dropped it soon after the II Model D appeared. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the situation, but I had thought that the C was replaced by the Type D. I have found, however, that Leica catalogues up to 1938 say that the available replacement/additional FILCA was the Type B. The same is the case with any Leica manuals I have looked at from the 1930s (latest is for the III from 1937). They all refer to the FILCA B and give instructions for loading and handling that cassette type. Starting with a Leica II Model D manual date January 1933 there is a reference to the Agfa Leica film cassette which, according to the manual, is for one time use only. The manual refers to the need to change the lock at the bottom of the film chamber in order to use the new type of cassette. Lager also shows the new type of lock. Later manuals also contain such details and include references to similar cassettes from Kodak, Perutz etc. These are referred to as cassettes for daylight loading and unloading and for one time use only. In one manual a warning is given about re-loading and repeated use of such cassettes in the same manner as spool chambers, as the practice involved the risk of damage to the film and the shutter. Nowhere in the contemporary literature can I find a reference to a re-loadable Leica FILCA Type D. Reading between the lines it seems that between 1933 and 1937 over the counter 35mm rolls became available and commonplace. The 1935 film box which I got with a Leica IIIa (see my article re 1930s Leicas) did contain a plastic re-loadable Kodak film cassette shown below: This looks to me more like a product from the 1950s rather than the 1930s. It does, however, resemble the illustration of the FILCA Type D shown in Lager's book I would appreciate some enlightenment from forum members about whether they have seen a reloadable film cassette designated FILCA D made by Leica. The impression I have is that Leica went quickly from the FILCA D back to the FILCA B and, soon after that, the one time use cassette began to take off in the market. If the FILCA D does exist I would, of course, like to get one as an avid collector. William ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255938-filca-a-b-and-c-wheres-d/?do=findComment&comment=2974340'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 Hi willeica, Take a look here FILCA A, B and C, Where's D. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
TomB_tx Posted January 23, 2016 Share #2 Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) The D looks like the Agfa - Leica film cassettes I've seen now and then on eBay. It's also somewhat like the German made Asahiflex cassette of the early 1950s. Edited January 23, 2016 by TomB_tx 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2leica Posted January 23, 2016 Share #3 Posted January 23, 2016 I suggest obtaining a copy of Fritz Vith's Leica Handbook rather than relying on Jim Lager's all too brief summary. The A, B, C, and D cassettes are covered in some detail. The AGFA LEICA cartridge is covered as well. As per Vith these cartridges were "torn open for the removal of the spool in the darkroom.." The cartridge shell was cardboard. And therein I suppose the reason for 'one-time' use. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share #4 Posted January 23, 2016 Thanks TomB_tx and new2leica for your helpful advice. I was beginning to think that the FILCA D was even more rare than the FILCA C. The most common one seems to be the FILCA B. Based on the contemporary Leica catalogues and camera manuals from the mid to late 1930s, it seems that if you walked into a Leica dealer at that time and asked for a re-loadable film cassette you would have been given the Type B rather than the Type D. I have seen one reloadable cassette sold on ebay called the Leitz-Agfa film cassette which resembles the FILCA D, as described in Vith's book. I had noted that Lager had quoted from Vith's book and I will seek out a copy. The search continues. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted January 23, 2016 Share #5 Posted January 23, 2016 The type B is certainly the most available on the used market, and is very functional too. I use them regularly. I also have one type A. The IXMOO cassettes for the M series also seem to be based on the FILCA type B. The custom reloadable cassettes of the various cameras are an interesting area to explore. While the Canon RF cameras are considered Leica copies, their cassettes are a variant of the Contax design (as are Nikon, Leotax, and Fed cassettes). Nicca is the only "clone" I've found that uses the FILCA design. when Canon came out with the V (back-loading) models their old cassettes would not work in them. They must have had complaints, as the then added a baseplate "key" on later models to open a modified "V" cassette, which could be used through the Canon 7 and even the Canonflex SLR. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Pop Posted January 23, 2016 Share #6 Posted January 23, 2016 Fascinating stuff. Makes me really keen to start collecting, and loading, FILCA cassettes for my Barnacks. I have one cassette at present...I've always wondered how film wasn't scratched running through the gate/opening but it's such a cool design when the baseplate key is turned closed that it opens it fully. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted February 4, 2016 Share #7 Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Although slightly off topic I had recently the opportunity to handle an Ilford Witness. The base plate has two locks, one over each spool. Both sides, and the base plate is one way fit of course, have the characteristic unlocking base key for an IXMOO/FILCA allowing the loaded cassette to be transferred to an empty one with no rewind required. I could not try the Leica cassettes for size or function and the dealer had not noticed this, as I don't have access to the original instructions I can't confirm but I thought the snippet would be of interest here. I can only locate one picture showing the base plate removed: http://image.breguetcamera.com/20130830/0/79/321/C82613A3.jpg Note the dial is for the variable flash delay, good luck using different bulbs in a single roll!! Edited February 4, 2016 by chris_livsey Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted February 5, 2016 Share #8 Posted February 5, 2016 Although slightly off topic I had recently the opportunity to handle an Ilford Witness. The base plate has two locks, one over each spool. Both sides, and the base plate is one way fit of course, have the characteristic unlocking base key for an IXMOO/FILCA allowing the loaded cassette to be transferred to an empty one with no rewind required. I could not try the Leica cassettes for size or function and the dealer had not noticed this, as I don't have access to the original instructions I can't confirm but I thought the snippet would be of interest here. I can only locate one picture showing the base plate removed: http://image.breguetcamera.com/20130830/0/79/321/C82613A3.jpg Note the dial is for the variable flash delay, good luck using different bulbs in a single roll!! Interesting! The history notes it combined elements of Leica and Contax, and the removable back and dual keys are like the Contax. Since the baseplate lacks the Leica release fingers to unlock the FILCA latch, it probably used a Contax style cassette, like Nikon and Canon, and not the FILCA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted February 5, 2016 Share #9 Posted February 5, 2016 This system is the one used on the 250 Reporter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted February 5, 2016 Share #10 Posted February 5, 2016 I do not have much material related to cassettes in my collection's files, and I believe I never had a "D" model. Here are a few photos I found of Leica cassettes and containers I had, and also a box (already recently illustrated by a member, I believe). Next, photos of Leitz-Agfa and Leitz cassettes. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255938-filca-a-b-and-c-wheres-d/?do=findComment&comment=2983359'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share #11 Posted February 5, 2016 I do not have much material related to cassettes in my collection's files, and I believe I never had a "D" model. Here are a few photos I found of Leica cassettes and containers I had, and also a box (already recently illustrated by a member, I believe). Next, photos of Leitz-Agfa and Leitz cassettes. Thanks Pecole. Did you have the FILCA C? The item on the right side of the photo on the top of this thread is one of my two FILCA Cs. I had been told that the two that I have are among the rarest of all Leica accessories. I would be interested in finding out whether you or any other member have or have had one. As for the FILCA D, I am going to have a look at Fritz Vith's book, as recommended by new2leica above, but I have not been able to find any reference to a FILCA D outside of that. I am coming around to the view that the Agfa Leica cassettes shown above by you are, effectively, the same as the FILCA D. I also have the red box which you show above. It also has compartments for holding the cassettes and, as I mentioned in a recent article, somebody had hand-written details of photos taken about 1935 in the grid inside the lid of the box. Underneath the box, which seems to have come with a Leica IIIa, of similar vintage to mine, there are the following inscriptions: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The box appears to have been originally for a chrome III (LYSUMCHROM) but an 'a' was added along with LIOON, the code word for the IIIa and a word that looks like 'Friedem'. The box, which was from about 1935, appears to have been for the B. Kassette; presumably the FILCA B. The Leica IIIa, which I got with this box, was the 23rd ever made; this box was for the 8th one made according to the SN on the box. I wonder whether this was a special offer with the then 'new' IIIa? William 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The box appears to have been originally for a chrome III (LYSUMCHROM) but an 'a' was added along with LIOON, the code word for the IIIa and a word that looks like 'Friedem'. The box, which was from about 1935, appears to have been for the B. Kassette; presumably the FILCA B. The Leica IIIa, which I got with this box, was the 23rd ever made; this box was for the 8th one made according to the SN on the box. I wonder whether this was a special offer with the then 'new' IIIa? William ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255938-filca-a-b-and-c-wheres-d/?do=findComment&comment=2983675'>More sharing options...
willwright Posted February 5, 2016 Share #12 Posted February 5, 2016 They are around. I have 2, exactly as you see them in the Vith illustration. I also have a "D" lookalike in form of an Agfa Plenachrome cassette preloaded. It had two sleeves the slip over either end of the Leitz like cassette. yet another variation. My "D" type cassette in engaged on the top "Leitz-Agfa-kassette_fur Agfa-Leica film. Other than the engraving it's identical to the Vith image. Will Wright 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted February 7, 2016 Share #13 Posted February 7, 2016 I must confess I never paid much attention to the numerous cassettes I had in my collection. But reading the above and searching for more photos in my archives, I came across this photo illustrating, on the left, what "could" be an elusive D model. Experts, please! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255938-filca-a-b-and-c-wheres-d/?do=findComment&comment=2984503'>More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted February 7, 2016 Share #14 Posted February 7, 2016 Pecole, That mystery cassette is not a Leica, but rather of the "Contax style" family. The opening mechanism doesn't fit a Leica baseplate. Here's a lineup of Contax (post war), Nikon, Canon, and Leotax (branded generic) with that type of latch system: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! It looks most like a generic Canon cassette copy. Here is a Canon (old style) on the left, and Leotax on the right. Leotax made Leica III copies in Japan, but some of the Japanese cameras sourced re-branded cassettes from Germany, so the manufacturer isn't really identified. But is was clearly made for a bottom loading camera with the Contax style opening key in the baseplate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! It looks most like a generic Canon cassette copy. Here is a Canon (old style) on the left, and Leotax on the right. Leotax made Leica III copies in Japan, but some of the Japanese cameras sourced re-branded cassettes from Germany, so the manufacturer isn't really identified. But is was clearly made for a bottom loading camera with the Contax style opening key in the baseplate. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255938-filca-a-b-and-c-wheres-d/?do=findComment&comment=2984654'>More sharing options...
Pecole Posted February 8, 2016 Share #15 Posted February 8, 2016 Pecole, That mystery cassette is not a Leica, but rather of the "Contax style" family. The opening mechanism doesn't fit a Leica baseplate. Here's a lineup of Contax (post war), Nikon, Canon, and Leotax (branded generic) with that type of latch system: Contax style Cassettes.jpg It looks most like a generic Canon cassette copy. Here is a Canon (old style) on the left, and Leotax on the right. Leotax made Leica III copies in Japan, but some of the Japanese cameras sourced re-branded cassettes from Germany, so the manufacturer isn't really identified. But is was clearly made for a bottom loading camera with the Contax style opening key in the baseplate. Canon style cassettes.jpg Thank you very much, Tom. I could not verify since I do not have the photographed cassette anymore, but your precious information will at least allow me to correct the caption of my photo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 8, 2016 Author Share #16 Posted February 8, 2016 The closest to a FILCA D I have seen is the Agfa Leica Film Cassette shown above by Pecole- Second Row rightmost and Third Row leftmost on the posting of 5 February. Most of the Leica literature from the mid 1930s indicates that the FILCA B was still what you would have got from a dealer if you asked for a re-loadable cassette. The FILCA C was dropped very quickly and that is why it is so rare. The Agfa Leitz cassette is mentioned as a non re-usable cassette. A manual for the Leica II dated January 1933 states, in referring to the Agfa Leica cartridge, that "The cartridge is used only only once and is torn open only for developing of the film in the darkroom". A manual for the Leica III dated June 1937, which also references the FILCA B as the currently available reloadable cassette or 'spool chamber', mentions a number of manufacturers as supplying 'Leica cartridges' and states " Stringent warning is given against the re-loading and the repeated use of these cartridges in the manner of the spool chambers (FILCA B per the manual) ; this practice involves the risk of damage both to the film and the shutter". Yet the Agfa Leica film cassette, shown by Pecole above, seems to be a metal re-loadable cassette. I have not yet been able to obtain a copy of Fritz Vith's book which may contain some answers. My own view is that during the 1930s there was the beginning of the migration from re-loadable to non re-loadable cassettes and that other manufacturers followed the design principles of the Agfa Leica cassette. I would still like to see a photo of a real 'live' FILCA D, though. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan mcfall Posted February 10, 2016 Share #17 Posted February 10, 2016 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Just an observation on one end of the cassette. To me, it seems the earliest are unmarked, then the majority(probably the "B") are as the one on the left and marked Ernst Leitz Wetzlar Germany. The second from the left is marked Ernst Leitz GmbH Wetzlar Germany and has an inward protrusion of the outer raised ring. I presume this was made after 1952 because of the GmbH mark. The third from the left is similar, but the protrusion is now just a pin. The one on the far right is marked E. Leitz Inc. New York, USA. You may have to zoom in to see the details. In the background, is what others have shown: early and later aluminum single canister tins, and double canisters in aluminum and in fiber. Regards 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Just an observation on one end of the cassette. To me, it seems the earliest are unmarked, then the majority(probably the "B") are as the one on the left and marked Ernst Leitz Wetzlar Germany. The second from the left is marked Ernst Leitz GmbH Wetzlar Germany and has an inward protrusion of the outer raised ring. I presume this was made after 1952 because of the GmbH mark. The third from the left is similar, but the protrusion is now just a pin. The one on the far right is marked E. Leitz Inc. New York, USA. You may have to zoom in to see the details. In the background, is what others have shown: early and later aluminum single canister tins, and double canisters in aluminum and in fiber. Regards ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255938-filca-a-b-and-c-wheres-d/?do=findComment&comment=2986955'>More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted February 10, 2016 Share #18 Posted February 10, 2016 . I have not yet been able to obtain a copy of Fritz Vith's book which may contain some answers. William Google Alibris USA 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share #19 Posted February 10, 2016 Leica cassettes.jpg Just an observation on one end of the cassette. To me, it seems the earliest are unmarked, then the majority(probably the "B") are as the one on the left and marked Ernst Leitz Wetzlar Germany. The second from the left is marked Ernst Leitz GmbH Wetzlar Germany and has an inward protrusion of the outer raised ring. I presume this was made after 1952 because of the GmbH mark. The third from the left is similar, but the protrusion is now just a pin. The one on the far right is marked E. Leitz Inc. New York, USA. You may have to zoom in to see the details. In the background, is what others have shown: early and later aluminum single canister tins, and double canisters in aluminum and in fiber. Regards Thanks Alan. The first three from the left look like the FILCA B as they have the type of flexible clip at the top which that model has. The item on the right does not appear to have such a clip as is also the case with the FILCA C- see my photo at the top of this thread. The FILCA C has the same gate type opening as the A and B, whereas the D appears to have a narrow slit with a felt lining as illustrated in Vith and Lager. The FILCA C is one of the rarest of all Leica accessories and my two are the only ones I have ever seen. It would be nice to see one in the hands of another collector. As for the FILCA D, I would like to see one that was manufactured by Leitz. Perhaps the one shown by Pecole and marked Agfa-Leica is that item. Some of my FILCAs carry the Leitz name but most do not. As for the protrusions on the base I will go through my collection of FILCAs and will report back if any exist. I have five or six of the metal canisters as well the fibre double canister which fits in a compartment in the early ETRIN case for the I Model A. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted February 10, 2016 Share #20 Posted February 10, 2016 The Leitz New York was indeed a USA produced version, rare, and nearly unheard of outside the US. I believe it was listed only in the US literature. I don't have one, but do have a Leitz NY Focomat 1b! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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