Leica S & M Warranty Issues and Fixes

[menos I M6]

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Mark, the long repair times 6-8 weeks are many, many times mentioned in discussions like these.

Of course, I am just one single customer, hence not representative for the general situation, but I really cannot relay to those numbers.

Let me give you a few recent examples from the top of my head:

 

- M7, complete rebuilt with custom parts: 2 weeks

- M9, sensor replacement: less than 2 weeks

- MM, adjustment of loose frame preview lever: less than 10 minutes

- 50/1.4 (2 samples): adjustment of aperture dial feel after having received the repaired lenses: less than 5 min (I am serious, Leica Wetzlar's techs are absolutely AMAZING people!)

- S2, complete rebuilt, replacement of top OLED, focus adjustment: 2 weeks

- 75 Summilux, coding, focus mount rebuilt, focus adjustment: 1 week

- 50/1 Noctilux, coding, adjustment of focus mount: 2 weeks

- worst case: 50 Summilux ASPH, shipped from Shanghai - Hong Kong - Solms - Hong Kong - Shanghai, coding, focus adjustment, focus mount rebuilt: 4 weeks (including customs delay through 4 borders)

- replacement of Contax 645 - S adapter: 1 week (including shipping from Wetzlar to Shanghai)

 

Again: I am not a professional user, as which I would make double sure to have redundancy for cases of repairs and service.

With the S system, Leica does actually practice a replacement program on a case to case basis - I needed to use my S2 body when it was in for rebuilt and asked nicely - Leica provided me a body to use during that time.

 

Again - I am just one person and may not be representative for the entire customer base but in my experience Leica offered absolute world class customer service in almost every single instance.

Many times (some of these listed above) Leica CS even surprised me at how courteous and willing they were to offer a much better service than I possibly could expect.

 

This very positive customer service experience I may add is a strong reason why I very likely will remain a very loyal customer.

 

I may add one last thing - Leica customer service and treatment of customers around the world is not all equally good. For example - should you be in trouble with Leica gear in Shanghai, I found it pretty much useless to walk into Leica's flagship store on the Nanjing road luxury shopping boulevard, as you are treated as LTWS (lower than whale shit). Contact Leica CS in Germany, have them arrange a solution with the Schmidt Marketing office in Shanghai and you are treated first rate.

 

I am sure this is a mirror at how elsewhere in the world things may be as well. Find personal contact with Leica people if you have a problem and you will experience the fastest and most professional service you could ever wish for. Go through the long change of instances in case of an issue and you may very well get stuck.

 

To sum it up: I think A LOT (if not MOST) of the bad word Leica gets these days about repair times and quality issues is the simple product of the essence of a publicly accessible camera gear complaint forum where people who have issues like to either vent their anger or search for a helping comment, hence spreading the news about issues.

It lies in our nature as men to love to hear about bad news (hence the success of all the junk news articles and junk TV stations in western developed countries, as we simply love the bad gossip).

Rarely will we be much interested in reading on good news or even be the potential producers of such be willing to risk spreading good news as of potential failure to sell it as well as the negative slurp we are used to these days.

 

 

If a really, really, really good, close friend would ask me today if spending a fortune on a Leica camera will net a good experience and if worries about warranty and services are substantiated - I would without hesitation recommend to buy a Leica.

That is just based on my own experience.

[LeicaR10]

Menos I M6,  You are very fortunate indeed with your past repair times, IMO.  I do know from experience that most of Leica Customer Service staff try very hard to make things right for you.  Just this last week, my Leica S 30mm lens that had been sent in for repair to Germany was replaced.  I can not thank the staff enough for them doing this for me.  I also know that Leica is working now very hard to vastly improve the Customer Service.  Leica knows excellent customer service is a key for their success as both a company striving to be a "luxury brand" and being known for the most reliable and top performing cameras and lenses.  I firmly believe if they do this, Leica's reputation will win far more professional and enthusiast users.  I am certainly heartened by the correspondence that I received from Leica.  But, the fact remains, the changes to significantly shorten repair times and simply changing the warranty to immediate exchange for a lens or camera body will do far more good for both the user and Leica's reputation.  Last, the strict and rigid testing of prototype cameras and lenses BEFORE going to production and almost zealot Quality Control standards, will help resolve malfunctioning cameras and lenses thereby making the Leica camera product line the most reliable and excellent camera products in the world...thereby IMO justifying the "luxury brand" prices and expectations based on performance and reliability.  

 

Again, thank you for your comments and are most welcome.  R/ Mark

Edited January 29, 2016 by LeicaR10

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[sdw]

Menos, you are extraordinarily lucky. When I sent in my M body, it took at least 4-5 weeks. Had to send it in again: 6 weeks. 35mm Summilux loose focus helicoid issue? 4 weeks. And the last one where I had to send it in for a body that was snapping photos by itself, another 4-5 weeks. 

 

I'm dreading going back to get it fixed up again after my last trip, but hey, this is what I have backup bodies for. 

[LeicaR10]

SDW,  Your experiences with the M clearly should be addressed by Leica management.  Unless the M camera/lenses are abused and I suspect they clearly are not, then I am advocating Leica should simply exchange the camera and lens in kind.  It is examples like yours and many others that I have seen personally over the last 15 years, that warrant Leica to change out the lemon(s).  I know there is a major effort at Leica now to address Customer Care across the board.  It is experiences like yours and other that people such as Stefan Daniel at Leica want to hear about from you and others.  It is the only way things will significantly improve for the brand IMO.

 

The same goes for fielding new or updated lenses and cameras.  I just learned the newly updated M 28mm f/2.0 Summicron lens kept its focus shift issue.  Why on earth would Leica allow this lens to be fielded for such an expensive and highly regarded lens?  Why not field an updated lens that addresses these issues?  

 

Last, I appreciate your comments and relating your experiences here.  R/Mark

[sdw]

SDW,  Your experiences with the M clearly should be addressed by Leica management.  Unless the M camera/lenses are abused and I suspect they clearly are not, then I am advocating Leica should simply exchange the camera and lens in kind.  It is examples like yours and many others that I have seen personally over the last 15 years, that warrant Leica to change out the lemon(s).  I know there is a major effort at Leica now to address Customer Care across the board.  It is experiences like yours and other that people such as Stefan Daniel at Leica want to hear about from you and others.  It is the only way things will significantly improve for the brand IMO.

 

The same goes for fielding new or updated lenses and cameras.  I just learned the newly updated M 28mm f/2.0 Summicron lens kept its focus shift issue.  Why on earth would Leica allow this lens to be fielded for such an expensive and highly regarded lens?  Why not field an updated lens that addresses these issues?  

 

Last, I appreciate your comments and relating your experiences here.  R/Mark

 

 

Such issues certainly suck. I think I fall into the 'abusing my gear' territory: the first time I had to send it in, I had taken it on a motorcycle expedition to the Alaskan Arctic. It sustained a crash at 40-or so mph, striking the lens which snapped off at the mount and scuffing up the body. It was working (barely) - only with electronic curtain shooting, but the shutter developed issues and it stopped working shortly after the trip. 

 

When I got it back they'd replaced the bottom plate, lens mount and fixed up the internals. After a month or two I suspect moisture made it into the shutter release and it started snapping away on its own. Sent it in, got it back.

 

Repeat that again once.

 

Now I am riding my motorcycle from California to Argentina and I took it through a cloud forest hike on to the top of an inactive volcano in Nicaragua. It has been holding up in the most extreme conditions, but I suspect the battery and possibly other internals got moist and they are dead. So, I am dreading the wait. It's a far cry from the CPS service I used to get where I had a replacement body and stuff was fixed in a few days, but that is what you get with a boutique shop. I heard the Leica S support is better, and if they can offer that level of support with the SL I am jumping ship! (with an M in my bag as a backup body... ha!)

[adamdewilde]

Leica CS is really good when it's good. But really bad when it's bad. I 100% agree that the S-system should be a swap for new if item breaks (not due to misuse) while under warranty. Also I think Leica N.J. needs a complete overhaul of management/employees. That or build the cameras/lenses better

 

And for the people who are going on about 8 week turn around vs 1 week turn around. Well Nikon and Canon pro services here will replace anything broken in 1 hour for me. I literally don't have time to grab a coffee before the repair work is done. So that's what I call professional level service. And they do this for my fun cameras, not just my pro series cameras. And generally it's done for free (Canon, Nikon always charges me something), even if out of warranty (unless it's a major issue, or I'm at fault). 

 

How about more repair facilities around the globe rather then Leica stores that don't want to help you out if you didn't buy the camera/lens from them personally. 

I get that they're franchises, but there should be some stronger CS policies in place from Germany. It just makes the brand look bad when you walk into the Official SF store and they basically turn you away because you didn't buy said item from them. And this isn't just the SF store, I've been to 3 major USA Leica stores that have given me attitude. I thought Leica was a brand for international roaming photographers? Apparently not..

 

Asian Leica CS is a lot better BTW (been to 3 Asian countries for repair work, and all stellar, no attitude).. And the Leica Ginza store just fixes shit on the spot. 

Edited January 31, 2016 by adamdewilde

[sdw]

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FWIW, Leica SF is always excellent to me and sends off stuff for me. Pathetic that Leica in the US does nothing CS wise, particularly fixing stuff, but that's not their issue. 

[LeicaR10]

SDW and AdamdeWilde,  Thanks for sharing your Leica experiences.  For SDW...What can I say!  Your Leica certainly took a licking and kept on ticking.  Leica clearly needs to revamp its Customer Service worldwide, IMO.  I know they are working on this now as its clearly important to its success as a brand.  BTW, the Leica store SF has been superb to me.  The staff goes out of its way to take care of my equipment or anything that I need.  Frankly, its the only Leica store that I found that exceeds my expectations with customer service.  Granted, they can't fix the equipment on the spot, but they leap tall buildings to make it right for me with Leica.

 

For Adamdewilde, thank you for sharing your experiences too.  I agree with you about Leica New Jersey too.  When its good its good, but when its not...clearly its not.  I am sorry to hear about your Leica SF store to be less than helpful. As I mentioned, my experience has been the opposite.  I rely on Leica store SF to do all the interface for me with Leica NJ and they apparently are quite successful. Leica Germany needs a real hard look at Nikon and Canon for repair services.  Better yet, the best solution if the Leica camera or lens is under warranty be it a M, S or SL...it malfunctions or is broken...its immediately replaced in kind..no hassles.  Simple...hassle free.  Customer is happy and Leica can resolve its malfunctioning camera or lens in its own way rather than at the expense and frustration of the Leica user.  If the Leica camera or lens is out of warranty, then it should quickly repaired, no lengthy drawn out process.  

 

Thanks again to SDW and Adamdewilde for your comments and experiences.  R/ Mark

[sdw]

Well said LeicaR10. I'd settle for a solid loaner program. 

[LeicaR10]

SDW,  I am sure you and many others would like a solid loaner program while your Leica equipment is being repaired.  This would be especially great if the camera or lens was out of warranty too.  Wow!...What a great concept?....Leica loans you a replacement camera/lens while they repair yours...even if its out of warranty.  Of course, the idea of Leica simply doing an immediate exchange if its under warranty with no hassles etc, would be IMO superb.  IMO, these two ideas would give great mileage to Leica being worthy of a "luxury brand" label for standing behind everything they sell wether or not its in or out of warranty.  Given the prices for Leicas and current lengthy time it takes for Leica NJ or Germany for repairs, this would be IMO an excellent way to build long-term Leica customers.

 

Anyone else care to share ideas on how Leica could improve their Customer Service and Product Warranty?  I am certain Stefan Daniel would be most interested in hearing from those on the LF and sharing your ideas and suggestions.    

 

Last, thank you SDW for your comments and sharing your experiences with us.  R/ Mark

[mwilliamsphotography]

(Paraphrasing portions of the OP)"

 

"I recently had the most strange two days at a Leica store with the Leica S system.  I have been a long-time Leica S and M user for my work.   

 

In my most recent experience with the Leica S system and lenses ... while in the store I was looking at a S 007 with a S 45mm... The lens auto focus motor literally died in my hands...grinding to halt...this was a brand new, store demo lens.  Then I was given a S 30mm to test...incredibly that lens motor died later while I was outside testing the lens and camera.  Last...again...no BS...I had a store nearly new S 180 in my hands on the camera and that lens aperture blades locked up ...  The next day, I went back and used the store demo S 007 and it had back focus issues.  

 

Leica clearly has a "reliability" of components problem. 

 

Your thoughts and comments are most welcome for this topic ... "

 

 

I appreciate the opportunity to respond to your concerns, because as a long time R, M and S system user (40 years), I have the same concerns regarding current Leica flagship products.

 

I do NOT consider Leica products as a Luxury. They are tools, and not the most expensive systems I've used through the years. 

 

I'll skip directly to my S system experiences.

 

As cynical as it may seem, your in-store fiasco with one S lens failure after another may sound shocking, but it doesn't surprise me.

 

I started with a S2P and a S-70 & S-180 early on when those were the only lenses available. The S2 sensor cracked with-in a few weeks forcing a bunch of retouching fixes on the job I was shooting. Body replaced. In less than a year the 2nd body failed on the job when the shutter button stopped working. Camera fixed. Then the sensor developed a red dead pixel line which does not show up in the LCD's jpeg review.  Leica responded very swiftly with a firmware fix, but that didn't help with the pics that needed the line retouched out of faces. Last year I sold the S2P and got a new S(006) while I could.

 

Before that, I had availed myself of the Leica program to upgrade early adopted S lenses to CS versions as they became available because I work with lighting all the time. Then the lenses started to fail one after another ... of course ... on the job.

 

Over the past two years: C/S-35mm aperture blade failure. CS-45mm AF failure (less than 4 months old). CS-120mm AF failure ... last week my CS-70mm Leaf-Shutter and/or aperture stop-down intermittently started to fail ... on the job. The only CS lens that hasn't failed is my CS-180 which I very rarely use. 

 

Every time I go to use this kit, I get a knot in the pit of my stomach because of these constant failures.

 

Why do I put up with it? Because IMO there is nothing out there that produces images like this camera system. It has become an "Agony and Ecstasy" sort of thing. 

 

I called Leica NJ to arrange for the failed CS-70 lens to be fixed a week ago Friday. No answer. Left a message. No reply. Been so busy that I left further follow-up to this week, which induces stress having to deal with it ... yet again. 

 

Now it may seem that I'm using this gear a lot ... but I am not. I have other camera systems I use far more frequently, and reserve the S for fashion, studio product, and some paid portrait or model comp sheet work in my capacity as a semi-retired photographer (retired almost 9 years ago). My volume of work with this camera is probably less than an amateur who goes on an photo outing once a month, and I go to great lengths to care for it. 

 

My point is ... it isn't just the after sales service experience that needs addressing ... its is QC before repair service is required so much. Yes, anything can have issues regardless of price ... some, but not so many. 

 

It is the un-nerving effect of accumulated failures while you are shooting. It is flummoxing to have this happen when working with models, or in front of client. You immediately think it is something you did wrong, and try to correct it. It stops the photo session dead in the water. Once you realize it isn't you, then the system swap has to take place (I use a Sony A7R-II as back-up which produces fine images, but not the same wonderful image qualities as the S ... nor does the Sony have a high sync speed with lighting).

 

Leica has to address this QC issue IMO.

 

And bend over backward for the victims of chronic failure. 

 

Thank you for listening.

 

- Marc

Edited February 9, 2016 by fotografz

[Manolo Laguillo]

Leica has to address this QC issue IMO.

 

That's the point! In the last 12 months I bought the following Leica products:

 

Leica D-Lux (109): had to be replaced because the battery emptied in a couple of days with the camera not being used.

Leica S (006): ok

Leica Elmarit S 30 mm: had to be replaced because a failure in the AF and loss of sharpness in the corners.

Leica Summarit S 70 mm: ok

Leica Vario Elmar S 30-90 mm: had to be replaced because loss of sharpness in the corners.

Leica M Monochrom (246): ok

 

Three out of six items were defective because bad QC. Or perhaps QC was fine, the items leaved the factory in perfect shape, and suffered during the shipping... I don't know.

Leica service was admirable, and this has to be said. They even contacted me offering an exchange of the 30-90 zoom because they found that unsharpness unacceptable (they saw the thread in this forum where I explained it). But it would be better if this could be fixed right before the products leave Wetzlar.

[LeicaR10]

Marc & Manolo Laguillo,   I want to thank you both very much for sharing your Leica issue stories here.  You both certainly have had your share of Leica failures.  For Marc, you are absolutely right...Nothing comes close to the files that come from the S system.  But the head aches and stomach knots worrying about camera and lens reliability simply should not be this way.  I couldn't agree with you more with the clear need for far better product reliability and most certainly Quality Control at Leica.  It is most frustrating to have premium anything and certainly cameras and lenses that are expensive, malfunction and break especially while you rely on the equipment for your profession.  A user on vacation or even every day use, needs their equipment to work.  Yes, "stuff happens" but clearly, the S system albeit a new line designed for professionals, (like the SL line) must be of the highest reliability and quality control.  The S system has been out long enough to have resolved the back focus, auto focus and other issues...yet they persist. Why?  If Leica wants pros to come to Leica and drop the others, then the company MUST up its product quality control to almost zealot standards and Customer Service must be first rate, be it M, S, SL etc, i.e., no waiting weeks for repair/replace decisions, estimates or exchanges. I do know they try their best...but it must be better than "try", IMO it simply must be THE BEST.  Leica would go a long way to solving its Customer Service issues with immediate exchange at the Leica dealer, no hassle, take the camera or lens in and walk out with a replacement either new or refurbished in kind as long as it in the warranty period.  Outside the warranty, Leica would need to up the number of qualified repair technicians.  Certainly Leica USA in NJ could use a major shot in the arm to increase the number of factory trained technicians, more equipment to repair the M, S and SL cameras in NJ versus shipping the item to Germany.  In Germany...6-8+ weeks to repair an item is simply not good enough...period. (Maybe significant increased pay for the technicians would help fix a revolving door there)  Leica would be better off to simply replace the item with a refurbished camera or lens than let the customer go longer than a week without their equipment.  

 

IMO, an iron clad immediate hassle free exchange at the authorized Leica dealer within the warranty period along with a zealot type rigid product testing in the field, not by wannabe Leica testers and again zealot QC at the factory will go a long way to fixing their products and reputation.  Also, Leica would do well getting rid of the non-store, web based dealers.  No physical store, you can not be a authorized Leica dealer.  Why? If the website can not make an immediate hassle free exchange, they should not be a Leica dealer...simple.  Plus they don't have any skin in the game...no physical store, no overhead, etc... In addition, a latest case in point, the newly tweaked M 28mm f/2 Summicron lens is being reported by Lloyd Chambers as having significant back focus issues at all distances.  IF true...WHY?  Those updated lenses should NOT have any or maybe slight back focus issues...NOT significant back focus at all distances.  The same happened with the 50mm APO, i.e. flare and back focus...it should NOT have happened.  Again, I realize "Stuff Happens"...but that excuse, IMO, is not good enough.  The product needs to be perfect or near perfect as designed when it leaves the Leica factory...period.  

 

Last, I thank both Marc and Manolo for sharing their experiences with us...Anyone else care to share your experiences?  Or maybe you will provide your suggestions to Leica how to improve Customer Service, Warranty or Quality Control....I am sure Leica is looking for our feedback.

Edited February 10, 2016 by LeicaR10