Incorrect serial number on leica m4

[massoudsheikh]

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I was wondering if any of you leica history buffs could help me out on this weird topic. I recently bought my first leica m, an m4-p. I know the camera had to have been in the last group of 2223 m4-p's produced because it has the m6 top plate windows and single pc port. The issue is that the serial number isn't registered to any leica m4-p's. It's registered to a leica r3. Since production for those cameras ended almost a decade before my camera was ever made, I was wondering what the cause could be. Just a mistake? Hopefully not a fake... 

 

the serial # is 1468592 

 

thanks for any input 

 

-Massoud

[adan]

First, don't worry about a fake - M4-Ps just are not valuable enough to fake (a convincing fake built from scratch would cost more than just buying a used M4-P).

 

Second, Leica serial numbers are notoriously mixed up in some cases.

 

Primarily, because Leitz would pre-assign serial numbers for a type of camera in blocks: "The next 2,000 R3's will be numbered from XXX7000 to XXX9000," or something similar. If, in fact, only 1,817 R3s were actually completed, then there are "orphan" numbers, which may or may not get recycled back into the available pool and assigned to some other camera.

 

Secondarily, because Leitz was a small company, with two factories running lines (Midland, Canada, and Wetzlar) and thus with limited runs (E.G. 2,000 total M4-2s built in the first year). A lot of the production records were still hand-entered in ledgers.

 

I owned an early 90mm f/2 of the type introduced in 1980. The serial number was one assigned for the previous 90mm f/2, and corresponded to 1977 production.

 

The folks who, after the fact, have tried to sort out which cameras have which numbers, for lists in books or online, are often groping in the dark, or having to make educated guesses.

 

The same somewhat applies to the "M4-P with M6 top plate" situation, as well. The two cameras were being built simultaneously, and pulling pre-engraved accessory shoes out of a bin of shoes, there might well be some M4-Ps with the newer top plate, but assembled with an "older" shoe and number from the bottom of a box.

 

In other words, Leitz would not build their 1,468,592nd camera, and then engrave that specific number on it. They would build a camera, pull out an accesory shoe (post-1977), put the shoe on, and record the camera based on the pre-engraved number. And make an entry in the ledger book (unless it was late on a Friday.... )

Edited December 31, 2015 by adan

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Andy,

 

Very astute observations.

 

By the way, perhaps: XXX7001 to XXX9000.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[massoudsheikh]

Andy, 

 

Thank you for the response, it was incredibly informative. The camera likely has one of the "orphan numbers." Since the R3 that would have/should have been assigned this number was built in Portugal, it would not make sense for that number to show up in Canada (or germany if, in fact, it is was of the 1000 assembled at wetzlar). Again, thank you for your insight, I love gaining any weird esoteric knowledge about Leica's practice/history. 

 

-Massoud

Edited December 31, 2015 by massoudsheikh