Collapsible Summitar 50mm/F2?

[eujin]

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Hi all, I just picked up a gently used M Monochrom and was wondering if anyone has used the Summitar 50/2 on it? I've read that Leica warns not to collapse the lens on M9 cameras, but people like Steve Huff and Ken Rockwell have said they've collapsed theirs with no ill effects. I'd hate to do any damage to my newly acquired camera, so any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

[hepcat]

If you're willing to trust your camera to the likes of Steve Huff and Ken Rockwell, then go for it. 

 

Otherwise, this is quoted from the M9 manual, p. 110

 

Important:

• Cannot be used:

 

– Hologon 15mm f/8

– Summicron 50mm f/2 with close up setting,

– elmar 90mm f/4 with retractable tube (manufactured

from 1954–1968)

 

•Can be used, but risks damaging the camera

or lens:

 

Lenses with retractable tube can only be used with

the tube extended, i.e. their tube must never be

retracted into the Leica M9.

 

I use a new-style M mount collapsible Heliar 50mm f/2, but the lens tube doesn't retract past the mounting bayonet and is safe to use on the digital M cameras. 

 

Edited December 22, 2015 by hepcat

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[eujin]

 

If you're willing to trust your camera to the likes of Steve Huff and Ken Rockwell, then go for it. 

 

 

I posted the question precisely because I don't trust either of them at their word. I'm just wondering which collapsible lenses constitute "risk" and which ones are absolutely not to be retracted. I understand that as a company, it's easier for Leica to avoid any liabilities if they simply issue a blanket warning about all lenses with retractable tubes... My Summitar is a lovely little lens but it doesn't get as much use because my 35mm Summarit is pretty much married to my M4-P and it's a little bit too long for my taste when mounted as an adapted lens on my Fuji bodies. 

[250swb]

You can safely collapse the Summitar into any Leica camera, and any includes the MM or M246. And if you aren't incompetent you can mount it in the collapsed position because the advise to mount it extended covers the owner from scratching the inside black finish of the camera or mangling the rangefinder cam, and nobody would try to put a collapsed lens (or any lens) on at an angle would they?

 

 

Steve

[earleygallery]

Leica's advice - going back the the Barnack cameras - has always been to mount/unmount such lenses in extended state, to avoid clumsy types from bashing the rangefinder cam or scratching the interior or the camera. 

 

Of course there is another option - just use it extended all the time and don't collapse it, it's not compulsory! 

[pico]

All good advice above which worked for me with the Summitar 50m.  (Unfortunately somehow I got something caught in the lens barrel's groove and now it cannot collapse.)

 

Back to the Summitar 50mm - it was one of those lenses with features that left and came back, such as the aperture being an octagon in some and circular in others. Post WWII versions had coating - or the better coating. Finding one with coating and a circular aperture is a trick, but I did finally find one.

 

.

[eujin]

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Really appreciate the feedback, everyone. The only reason I like collapsing the lens is to make the whole setup compact enough to fit in a coat pocket. That said, I find the Summitar just a bit too fussy in terms of ergonomics. My copy has too much friction in the aperture ring, such that rotating to shoot wide open will cause the entire barrel to rotate—this makes it a bit easy to accidentally collapse it. I'll probably keep this as my main lens on the M4-P most of the time, and move the Summarit over to the Monochrom. 

[250swb]

The aperture ring should be free, so the lens needs a service. It is well worth doing, the Summitar is a very fine lens and under-rated by many yet idolised by a few.

 

 

 

Steve

[eujin]

The aperture ring should be free, so the lens needs a service. It is well worth doing, the Summitar is a very fine lens and under-rated by many yet idolised by a few.

 

 

 

Steve

Do you mean that the aperture ring should not have any tight friction? It turns freely but there's more friction there than with the rotation of the tube for collapsing the lens. Thanks for the advice!

[asiafish]

Do you mean that the aperture ring should not have any tight friction? It turns freely but there's more friction there than with the rotation of the tube for collapsing the lens. Thanks for the advice!

That is definitely not normal.  The aperture ring should move with the same smoothness and friction as the focus ring, or less.

[eujin]

That is definitely not normal.  The aperture ring should move with the same smoothness and friction as the focus ring, or less.

 

I just checked it again and it appears to be moving a tad more freely now. Must've heard us talking about it. 

 

Guess I'll have to get a CLA for it in the near future. 

[earleygallery]

It will be sticky drying lubricant. A CLA should solve the problem. I have one and the aperture is really stiff - I must have it CLA'd as it's a really nice clean lens optically. 

[Tony_K]

I collapse my 50mm f2 summitar into both my m9 and my mm all the time. Has never been an issue.  

[eujin]

Just to be safe, I'll avoid collapsing the summitar into my MM. Love how this lens performs. Here's a shot from over the holiday break: 

 

[Rus]

Just to be safe, I'll avoid collapsing the summitar into my MM. Love how this lens performs. Here's a shot from over the holiday break: 

 

 

Nice Image! 

 

I've used a collapsible Cron 50mm on my M9, and have tried both collapsing the lens while it is mounted on the camera, and mounting the lens in the collapsed position. No issues. I don't know enough about the differences between the M9 and the M Monochrom in terms of internal dimensions..so my experience might not be very useful

Edited January 9, 2016 by Rus

[250swb]

Nice Image! 

 

I've used a collapsible Cron 50mm on my M9, and have tried both collapsing the lens while it is mounted on the camera, and mounting the lens in the collapsed position. No issues. I don't know enough about the differences between the M9 and the M Monochrom in terms of internal dimensions..so my experience might not be very useful

 

The internal dimensions are the same and you do the right thing to collapse it, that is what the lens was made for, to create a compact camera.

 

 

Steve

[jaapv]

 

Question: Is it safe to collapse a lens with retractable tube (e.g. 50mm Elmar) into the body of the M8 or M9?

 

Answer:

 

First of all, Leica says in the manuals for the M8 and M9: „Lenses with retractable tube can only be used with the tube extended, i.e. their tube must never be retracted into the LEICA M8/M9. This is not the case for the current Macro-Elmar-M 90mm f/4, whose tube does not protrude into the camera body even when retracted. It can therefore be used without any restrictions.“

 

On the other hand many users have reported in this forum that they regularly retracted the tubes of other lenses into the camera bodies without any problems.

 

Let‘s look for some facts:

 

There are two reasons for Leica‘s warning about collapsible lenses in the manuals:

 

1. The „throat“ of the digital M (the open space between the bayonet mount and the shutter) is much narrower than with film Ms. If someone would mount or dismount a lens with it‘s tube retracted and hold it in a certain angle it might touch and scratch the sides of the „thoat“. Therefore you should only mount or dismount a lens when the tube is extended.

 

2. The retracted tube might touch and damage the shutter.

 

If you look into the body without a lens you see two black metal ridges above the shutter. The distance between those two ridges is approx. 25mm. The diameter of a retractable lens tube is at least 27mm (in most cases considerably more). So if the tube hits anything it will be the ridges and not directly the shutter. This does not make it safe, for pressure on these ridges, which are made of rather thin metal, might interfere with or even damage the shutter.

 

Do the tubes of retractable lenses touch the ridges?

 

I measured 24mm as the distance between the surface of the camera‘s bayonet and the ridge both for the M8 and M9. Let us stay on the safe side and say: a tube which enters 22mm or more into the body will be critical or dangerous. That is certainly the case for the collapsible 4/90 Elmar (old type ILNOO; 11631, 11131, which was produced from 1954 to 1968 - so not to be mixed up with the current Makro-Elmar-M, 4/90).

 

How long are the tubes of other collapsible lenses entering into the body?

 

Some examples: For the tube of the collapsible version of the 2/50mm Summicron (screw-mount) I measured less than 14mm when it is collapsed, so I see no risk at all that it could touch the ridges. For the Elmar-M 2.8/50 (last version) it‘s 20.5mm, same for the first version of the 2.8/5cm Elmar with M-mount or it‘s 3.5/5cm M-mount precedessor. But a „red dial“ 3.5/5cm from 1951 (screw-mount) gives a very risky result of 22.5mm; for a nickel 3.5/5cm from 1932 I measure 20.5mm again. The 2.5/5cm Hektor had the longest tube I know: 23mm, which is dangerous! The Summar‘s and the Summitar‘s tubes were shorter than those of the Elmar (18mm). For all screw-mount lenses the adapter, which is necessary to mount them on an M, gives 1mm more space. The different results for the 50mm- or 5cm-Elmars from different times show that individual measurements of certain lens types are not reliable for every other lens of this sort. There may be variants in the tube‘s design, even protruding sharp edges on the ends of a tube.

 

So before retracting a lens into the body of a M8 or M9 one should measure the retracted tube (always fixed on infinity) looking especially for protruding edges. Anything which is 22mm or longer should be never retracted but the extended tube secured by a Dymo band that it won‘t retract accidentially.

 

A new thread in the German forum about collapsible lenses for the M tought me that my explanations about collapsible lenses used with M-cameras are incomplete: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/forum-zur-leica-m9/269373-elmar-2-8-50mm-m9-2.html#post2295115

 

I dealt a lot with the risk of the tube touching the shutter or scratching the throat of the camera. Though these risks cannot be ruled out completely they are not the whole story. The real risk is caused by the broad end of the tube hitting the little roller of the focus sensor lever and its screw. You can see it on the photo here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/forum-zur-leica-m9/269373-elmar-2-8-50mm-m9-2.html#post2295443

 

You can test this with a M-body for film when you open the rear window (without film) and look through the opened shutter and lens. When you push the collapsible lens tube inwards you may see it scratch at the roller or its screw. So this is no new problem for the digital M but for all M models as they all have the same roller and screw for the focus sensor lever at the same position.

 

The 2.8/50 Elmar-M (last version) may cause the most trouble - with all Leica-M bodies! - as the black end of the tube is broader than on earlier collapsible lenses. The tube of the last version of the 50mm Elmar may also have more play in the lens mount than earlier collapsible lenses, so it may hit the roller at a "bad" angle.

 

Older lenses are not completely free of this problem. I measure the same diameter of 3,04cm for the broad tube's end of a post-war Summitar. The other collapsible lenses seem to have about 1 millimeter less, though there may be variances.

 

So to collapse a 2.8/50mm Elmar-M - or any other collapsible lens on an Leica-M-body - may cause a conflict between the end of the lens tube and the roller for the focus lever. Leica's caveat about using collapsible lenses in the M8 or M9 (M-E) is therefore justified - though the same caveat is true for any other Leica-M body..

[duckrider]

Did delete my post, thanks to Jaap & Uli!

Thomas

Edited January 10, 2016 by duckrider

[jaapv]

The distance between lens and sensor is exactly the same as between film and lens - otherwise your sensor-based photographs would be completely out of focus.

The Summitar collapses to 18 mm according to the FAQ, making completely safe to collapse with at least 4 mm to spare.

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[eujin]

The distance between lens and sensor is exactly the same as between film and lens - otherwise your sensor-based photographs would be completely out of focus.

The Summitar collapses to 18 mm according to the FAQ, making completely safe to collapse with at least 4 mm to spare.

 

Many thanks for this clarification!