Leica M (Typ 262) - Reduction to Rangefinder Photography (at 1000 € less)

[jaapv]

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Yes, but they did build a new RF adjustment rig during the M8 production, when it turned out film camera accuracy was insufficient. So I do not think that the accuracy of adjustment will have suffered significantly.

As a fair number (but unfortunately not all) complaints about out-of-box trouble arise from transport, and the 240/262 one has been made considerably more shock-resistant, I doubt that the 262 buyers need to worry on this account.

[Rick]

Today I took my M240 out with the little 35 Summicron Asph and had a wonderful time shooting on a cold blue sky day here in Seattle.  I turned off the video function and LV and pretended I had the new M262.  I really couldn't tell the difference, but I had a wonderful time.    Don't believe you could go wrong with either! 

 

It's cold here so I'm going to pop into a coffee shop and warm up.

 

RickM240

 

Just got home from a day out shooting!  I shot in both Classic mode and Premium mode.

 

Classic mode:  I disables LV and video.  Shot most of the morning in Classic mode and found myself setting the camera to DNG + JPEG fine.  This way I could set the camera to B&W.  Really nice experience and I found myself looking for that classic HCB street shot.  It was a very essential experience.  I found myself slowing down the whole experience.  After a while, I needed some coffee  and went in to warm up and have a shot of espresso to wake up.

 

Premium mode:  Next, I left the coffee shop with LV and video enabled.  Immediately, I felt more confident knowing that I had enabled the full power of the best FF 35mm camera system in the world or at least the most expensive.  Same thing, let's not split hairs here.  Returned to DNG only, color, and the handling of the camera was instantly more superior, in a humble sort of understated Leica way.  I placed the EVF on the camera and felt ready for any video reportage moment of real importance that might just pop up.  I just hoped I remembered how to set the camera up for video... 180 degrees was 1/50 sec at 24 FPS or something like that... and if it really was important how would I get the external stereo mic to work while the EVF was mounted?  Anyway, I had my iPhone with me if it really was groundbreaking news... that's pretty much the camera of choice for the nightly news.  

 

In summary, I have to say that I enjoyed both modes.  Classic felt like shooting for the high school news paper.  So organic and simple.  But Premium mode, I don't know, it felt superior.  I wanted to go into a really nice hotel bar and order a cocktail and take pictures of my food with a Noctilux.  Maybe, even a video to put up on my Facebook page.  

 

I will admit that I actually didn't take any pictures or videos in Premium mode, but it was way cooler walking around wearing my M240 around my neck like jewelry, as Thorsten has said.  And that big red Leica logo exudes premium, right?  

 

All in all, it only makes sense to go for the Premium experience.  More really is more.  I hope Leica crams every possible fricking function they can think of into the new M.  Make it so complex that I have to sit around in a nice bar all afternoon reading the manual and trying to figure out endless menus of automated features to help me take better photographs I can post on Facebook.  

 

RickClassic

 

 

p.s.  Of course this is tongue in cheek.  To be clear I would only buy a future Classic if it retained LV for my wides, long R lenses, and checking the RF.  It would also need an EVF of some sort for shooting LV in the sun and with wides and R lenses.  Also, the level is needed for me.  I like the option of video.  The idea of shooting 10 bit 4:2:2 log video with my 75 Lux intrigues me, although I haven't really done much with video on my M240.  Removing the back LCD would be a no go as well.  Confused?  Nothing is just black and white.

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[IkarusJohn]

... I will admit that I actually didn't take any pictures or videos in Premium mode, but it was way cooler walking around wearing my M240 around my neck like jewelry, as Thorsten has said.  And that big red Leica logo exudes premium, right?  ...

 

Hold on, you didn't actually take any pictures in "Premium Mode" ... 

[Winedemonium]

An interesting signal from Leica.

 

I like both experiences, as Rick divides them - 'classic', and 'premium'. 

 

Out and about travelling, or in the street, 'classic' is just fine. M-A, Monochrom, or M-P240 used with a 28/35/50. 

 

A week visiting wine estates in Burgundy last week and I used my APO50 and M-P240. Once or twice, to get candid shots framed the way I wanted them in close range, I switched to live view having focused via the rangefinder first, and framed with the camera held at waist height, to get the perspective the way I wanted it, and without drawing attention to myself by crouching down in the cellar during a wine tasting. 

 

So, video I don't use, but live view has its uses. Occasionally I put the M-P240 on a tripod (RRS l-plate replacement for baseplate), and put on R, F, or C/Y lenses with adaptors. That set up works, but is quite clunky. I find the M freezes up a fair bit when used in live view mode like this for any length of time. 

 

So, is M262 a fork in the road, as some are suggesting? For my own use, I would enjoy something along the 'classic' route as Rick puts it. The stripped down rangefinder experience is something we all enjoy a great deal.

 

But I would also buy the bells-and-whistles camera for a broader range of photography. The SL is a consideration. So too the A7RII. Neither is quite what I want. I may end up with one of those two, or I my might wait for something closer to the spec I want, 2016?...

 

It seems then that the M(-P)240 sits right in that fork in the road, and the M262 and the SL (and M v2106) just beyond it. The M(-P)240 allows me to do all the sorts of photography I like, but feels weakest when used with its rather awful EVF, or with adapted lenses. I suspect the Sony Alpha cameras and SL would feel better suited to that. 

 

If we imagine then an extension, a progression of the M262's path, ultimately a lighter, simpler digital rangefinder in the footprint of an M2/3/4/6/P/-A, then I am a customer for that camera. AND, if we imagine a camera with great native AF lenses, and highly suited for adapted use of R, F, CY lenses, then I am also a customer for that.

 

So, down both paths, I will be a customer, and I think I would prefer two more specialised cameras, to the single compromised design of the M(-P)240, as much as I admire and appreciate the M(-)240 for what it is - a smart, well made solution for when that fork had not been reached.

[Jeff S]

As a matter of fact the rangefinder was changed as well. The basic design is still the same (except the light source for the framelines) but virtually every single component was changed in order to double the precision – the intention being that the rangefinder should be as precise as the electronic viewfinder. They also revamped the calibration procedure for the M (Typ 240) but I suspect that doesn’t apply to the M (Typ 262) as the new calibration method relies on live-view.

Thanks, Michael.  Stefan Daniel phrased it much differently in this video interview with Thorsten....starting at about 10:30 mark...  http://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M10-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-Leica-M10-Monochrome-Digital-Rangefinder.html

 

He says that every part in the M240 was changed from the M9, except the structure of the RF, but that the RF accuracy was improved.  I appreciate your further explanation, as a prior discussion on the topic was left with only speculation.

 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

I don't know why but clicking on that link takes me to an old thread from 2006 about a photo of seagulls!

 

I'll drop by the Leica website to have a look at the specs.

Strange... try the link at the bottom of the first post in this thread... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/253302-leica-m-typ-262-reduction-to-rangefinder-photography-at-1000-€-less/?p=2931912

 

If that fails, enter 'Leica Forum Blog' into the search box to see the M262 article.

 

Jeff

[dsalamena]

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Well, I guess we have almost a year for you to know and the rest of us to guess; and for Michael to drop hints and tell us what is technically impossible and what else is not going to happen.  It's a long time, but then such is Leica that we speculate anyway.

 

Mean time, I'll be coming to grips with my new SL, and continuing to enjoy my existing cameras - a complete lack of talent and time are my most pressing problems.

My guess is that the new M will introduce something really new (maybe a completely different type of rangefinder?) and it will be announced before a year from now (March?). I don't think Leica can rely on people still buying a three year old model for long!

In the meantime I will continue enjoying my M-E (no reason to update, until the new model is announced).

Edited November 21, 2015 by dsalamena

[Rick]

Hold on, you didn't actually take any pictures in "Premium Mode" ... 

 

John,

 

Every picture on my sight was taken with Premium mode M240/M9/M8.  I know you understand my post was essentially just tongue in cheek to show that Classic is classic BS.  

 

Leica is essentially just clearing the stable floor before they introduce the new M240.  This is essentially nothing short of classic Leica marketing to get rid of parts and bodies and make some money on another M60-type camera while sales are slowing on the M line, while customers are waiting for the next M240.  

 

Come on, all that customers essentially have to do is disable LV and video on the M240 and voila! - you have a M262.  Essentially, it is the same for the classic M60.     

 

Rick

[scott kirkpatrick]

Premium mode vs Classic -- I've been working that way for almost three years.  I use two M[240]s, and it took very little time before the black one had LV off, the video button safely off, and a 28 or 35mm Lux installed, while the silver one had all features turned on, an SEM 21 or SX 21 on the front and an EV2 within reach.  Video still off, of course.

 

scott

Edited November 21, 2015 by scott kirkpatrick

[MarkP]

John,

 

Every picture on my sight was taken with Premium mode M240/M9/M8.  I know you understand my post was essentially just tongue in cheek to show that Classic is classic BS.  

 

Leica is essentially just clearing the stable floor before they introduce the new M240.  This is essentially nothing short of classic Leica marketing to get rid of parts and bodies and make some money on another M60-type camera while sales are slowing on the M line, while customers are waiting for the next M240.  

 

Come on, all that customers essentially have to do is disable LV and video on the M240 and voila! - you have a M262.  Essentially, it is the same for the classic M60.     

 

Rick

 

Spot on. I wondered when someone was going to state the bleeding obvious. 

Edited November 21, 2015 by MarkP

[IkarusJohn]

  To be fair, I use Live View all the time, then I bring my camera to my eye, and take the picture.

 

The trick is that rarely does the image I've capture match what I saw in Live View 

[Rick]

  To be fair, I use Live View all the time, then I bring my camera to my eye, and take the picture.

 

 

To be fair, I use the Classic mode 99% of the time.  And, when I post that I hope Leica keeps two lines, Classic and Premium... I actually just want an M that is essential.  Make the current M240 better.  That means smaller, lighter, faster (cheaper  ), but keep it essentially an M.  

 

I don't mind all of the extra stuff because, I'm not a dyed in the wool Leicashist.  I can ignore it or turn it off.  I just want a really good, and I mean really good, small camera that is essential.  Do what ever you have to do that gives me that.  I don't want to hobble Leica because I have to have tradition.  

 

I just want a premium, classic M.  That's all.

 

Rick

[Lax Jought]

Strange... try the link at the bottom of the first post in this thread... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/253302-leica-m-typ-262-reduction-to-rangefinder-photography-at-1000-€-less/?p=2931912

 

If that fails, enter 'Leica Forum Blog' into the search box to see the M262 article.

 

Jeff

 

hi Jeff, in that case I have seen the page, thanks.  I was referring to the fact that I am unfamiliar with how quiet the M240 is, compared with the upcoming Typ 262. 

 

Really odd why your other link took me to an old thread.  I was using Tapatalk at the time but now that I'm on my laptop, the link works as it should in your previous post. 

[Lax Jought]

The M6 and M240 do not differ so much. When using the M's in the vincinity of  the microphones of  Erato, Deutsche Harmonia Mundi, Harlekijn Holland, non of the mices recorded the M sound. But I make it a habit not to take a picture the instant the music stops, because that gives problems. You can hear the click and the technician will have trouble because he has to make an abnomal fade. You will not hear the click on the recording, but you will hear the acoustic snap, giving the music no time to fade in the accoustics of the room/hall.

 

On a persenal note , I never take of my shoes for I 'm afraid that the leather of my camera smells less than my socks....

 

On a film set it's a different environment though. 

 

Always make sure you have clean socks when you leave the house.  And clean underwear, so they say. 

[sumolux]

Do you really not understand it, or do you mean you don't want it yourself?

 

I assume you never used a Polaroid back or took a test shot, or re-took a photo after you'd developed your first attempt, or revisited a scene because one photo inspired another?

 

I can think of countless reasons why it might be creatively as well as technically helpful to quickly review a photo or a set of photos.

 

 

Hi Peter, 

A screen is not a deal breaker for me one way or the other. I simply don't need it.

And I have never needed one while using my rare and costly Velvia or Agfa Scala sensors 

 

Furthermore, in the time I spend taking the camera away from my face, pushing buttons, and bringing it back to my face, I have already lost several nice shots. Squinting at a tiny screen, for me anyway, does not 'put me in the moment'. It just takes me further away from where I am.

But that is just me...Everyone has the right to take pictures as they please in my book.....

Edited November 21, 2015 by sumolux

[marcg]

I've just been told by a UK dealer that the 262 is slated for availability from next week.

[Paulus]

There are a lot of practical cameras for attaching a flash and working with. I don't say it isn't possible, but Leica M and their lenses are THE TOOLS for low light photography. A photo drawn with a summilux or a noctilux is something special.

I never flash with the Leica but I can imagine people who do it and need it.

 

A flash jack take-off from the camera body would be great for them. It was alway there until the M8 appeared. I forgot Leica's motivation to omit it.

[wattsy]

There are a lot of practical cameras for attaching a flash and working with. I don't say it isn't possible, but Leica M and their lenses are THE TOOLS for low light photography. A photo drawn with a summilux or a noctilux is something special.

 

You'll be telling us that Leica lenses are meant to be used wide-open next.

[Paulus]

Premium mode vs Classic -- I've been working that way for almost three years.  I use two M[240]s, and it took very little time before the black one had LV off, the video button safely off, and a 28 or 35mm Lux installed, while the silver one had all features turned on, an SEM 21 or SX 21 on the front and an EV2 within reach.  Video still off, of course.

 

scott

Premium mode versus classic: I think i'll take my M240 and my MP loaded with Tmax 400 and dust of my enlarger in my cellar darkroom.

 

I try not to forget what the word classic means. IMHO it means : a thing or thought that keeps his value all the time. My € 2300,- MP  still keeps it value. ( allthough nobody in Holland will buy it for this price I'll think? )

 

On the other hand, In a few years the M262 will be a great back-up second hand camera for me. Looks great!

Edited November 21, 2015 by Paulus

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jcraf]

I have little or no use for LV or video, less still on my MM246. But a Monochrom '262'? .......now we're talking.