The T2

[Sho-Bud]

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Take an SL, stick it on a photocopier, set the reduction mode to say 70% and press copy.

 

Do we have the T2?

No, we have a piece of paper.

[Guest]

I would like to see in a T2, the ability to add copyright information into each image's Metadata. I would also be happy for an internally viewfinder and no flashgun. I would not like to lose the flash socket because I trigger my off camera studio lights by wireless connected to the flash-socket. 

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[bencoyote]

With the FW 1.4.3 the T is almost perfect.

One item should be available though: a battery charger that is much faster than the charger that it is delivered with now: modern Li-ion batteries are not hurt (on the contrary) by fast charging, and the standard charger takes ages to charge the T battery....

 

That is along the lines of one of my complaints with the T. I would like the T external battery charger to be able to either charge off of 12W USB like an iPhone or iPad (preferred) or 12v DC like the M. This is important for field use were you don't have easy access to AC

[bencoyote]

I would like to see in a T2, the ability to add copyright information into each image's Metadata. I would also be happy for an internally viewfinder and no flashgun. I would not like to lose the flash socket because I trigger my off camera studio lights by wireless connected to the flash-socket. 

 

Again one of the things that has long been on my T wish list. I really like the profiles AND the way that you can rename them on the M. It could be even easier on the T with the touchscreen UI. They already have a touchable keyboard for WiFi passwords. They just need to add a "manage profiles" option and use that keyboard to help name them.

 

Tangential and closely related is being able to save and load profiles to SD cards. In particular this would be really helpful getting back to the way things where when each firmware upload resets all the configuration and button customization to the factory defaults

[LexS]

Personally I do not want anything else as the T is now with Firmware 1.43. For me one of the strong points is the ease of operation. and for all the portability. I have a strong wish though: an 35 or 45mm lens that has the same or smaller size as the 23mm: all lenses except the 23 mm are too large to put the T in your pocket. A pancake would be ideal.

[gbealnz]

+1 Lex, perfect summation. My requests as well.

Gary

[Louis]

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+1 Lex, perfect summation. My requests as well.

Gary

 

Same here! I like o keep my T as it is, but I would welcome updates in firmwares to improve the performance! 

[Belle123]

I love my T also.  Actually, would like to see Leica come out with a new line that has the same size and grip and weight as the T but is full frame.  I don't quite understand the rational of cropped T lenses on the SL.  

[TheHobbit]

I love my T also.  Actually, would like to see Leica come out with a new line that has the same size and grip and weight as the T but is full frame.  I don't quite understand the rational of cropped T lenses on the SL.  

 

 

Current T with Full Frame? Where do I sign up?

[earleygallery]

Current T with Full Frame? Where do I sign up?

 

Over on the SL forum!

[Belle123]

The T can't be full frame.  The SL, too huge and cumbersome and heavy.  My wish list is a totally new system that is similar design, size, weight and grip of the T but is full frame.   But am sure Leica not listening.  Oh well!  I am fine with the M and the T as my secondary camera.

[BBHewee]

T with built in EVF and IBIS. Keep the APS-C sensor. Keep the philosophy. 

[gbealnz]

Agreed, built in EVF anyway, my only real gripe.

Heck I can even live without the app, I have so far.

Gary

[Doc_P]

The thing is, it could be all of those things and Leica can readily make slightly different cameras with different form factors which fill those niches. The guts of the camera can be the same: the same logic board the same sensor assembly. The difference would be in the firmware load and how it implements the UI. Is it wiring switches to GPIO pins or is it using a touch screen.

 

If I were Leica, I would make a the first T2 variation be built off of exactly the same case as the current T right down to the same mounting holes for the logic board and sensor assembly, it would be identical right down to the positions of the attach points of the flex cables driving the touch screen and going to the hot shoe etc. That way the parts would be compatible and wouldn't need to be changed. Then I would simultaneously introduce a T2 and a CLAU program. Clean Lubricate Adjust and Upgrade. The essence of the upgrade would be replacing the logic board and the sensor assembly with the new part. This would turn the problem of having to compete with ones own installed base into periodic service revenue. It would maintain contact with the customer and provide an opportunity to sell additional lenses and accessories. Having an upgradable camera vs a disposable camera would be a key differentiator for a brand like Leica. It would once again make a Leica a long term investment rather than a disposable consumer product.

 

I think the T is well suited to this approach. I haven't torn it down but it seems to be designed for manufacturability and possibly serviceability. There are probably two logic boards in there not including the display and I would guess about 3-5 flex cables.

 

Then if Leica so chooses they can elaborate different form factors within the T line as different products. These would be along the lines of the variations you enumerated. They would be all practically the same camera with the same logic board and sensor assembly right down to the mounting screws. However, they would route the flex-cables differently. For example instead of having the EVF pins go to the hot shoe, they go to a location in the case where the guts of the EVF are permanently mounted. And instead of a big touch screen display, they have a smaller display module and a few physical switches. The rest is just variations in how you implement the UI in firmware.

 

As part of that strategy I would drop the X line and make a TL mount camera with X like controls (or really because I think it is a winning combination Q like controls). Call it the X-TL or something.

Outstanding post! If only Leica would follow this path...

[dkCambridgeshire]

Outstanding post! If only Leica would follow this path...

 

 

 

But they cannot … because it's likely partly made in the Far East and maybe also Portugal … not wholly made in Wetzlar. The logistics and cost of upgrading the suggested 'T2' (a 'budget priced' ICL camera - not an 'M') and the redeployment of expensive resources better used elsewhere, likely prevent consideration of such a project. And as it's part of the SL - T camera project, any upgraded T has to maintain its SL system compatibility. Relatively few manufacturers are in the business of upgrading their products; they want to sell new products manufactured using the latest technologies - with manufacturing and design technologies using fewer human and more robotic resources. 

 

dunk

[Doc_P]

But they cannot … because it's likely partly made in the Far East and maybe also Portugal … not wholly made in Wetzlar. The logistics and cost of upgrading the suggested 'T2' (a 'budget priced' ICL camera - not an 'M') and the redeployment of expensive resources better used elsewhere, likely prevent consideration of such a project. And as it's part of the SL - T camera project, any upgraded T has to maintain its SL system compatibility. Relatively few manufacturers are in the business of upgrading their products; they want to sell new products manufactured using the latest technologies - with manufacturing and design technologies using fewer human and more robotic resources.

 

dunk

of course you're right, but why not dream a little bit... this would be real sustainability... the first time i came across this idea was in my nikon times: take a d2 body and upgrade sensor & electronics...

[bencoyote]

But they cannot … because it's likely partly made in the Far East and maybe also Portugal … not wholly made in Wetzlar. The logistics and cost of upgrading the suggested 'T2' (a 'budget priced' ICL camera - not an 'M') and the redeployment of expensive resources better used elsewhere, likely prevent consideration of such a project. And as it's part of the SL - T camera project, any upgraded T has to maintain its SL system compatibility. Relatively few manufacturers are in the business of upgrading their products; they want to sell new products manufactured using the latest technologies - with manufacturing and design technologies using fewer human and more robotic resources. 

 

dunk

 

 

I don't think that your argument actually is correct. Yes there is the way it has been done but once a product has reached a level of sufficiency, it is really hard to overcome market saturation. The whole camera industry is contracting. The challenge is coming up with a sustainable business model and that is sustainable not in the sense of ecological sustainability but in the sense of continuing revenue streams. Planned obsolescence or feature churn is one such business model but when you reach market saturation and sufficiency, that is very hard to sustain. 

 

We see it all over the place companies are looking for new business models. Software companies are doing subscriptions. e.g. Lightroom and Creative Cloud. Computer hardware companies are selling services e.g. IBM and Oracle. Even old manufacturing companies are converting to a subscription model. e.g. GE and Rolls Royce jet engines. Even GM is playing around with Maven a "mobility as a service". 

 

The Era of make widgets and continual consumption is coming to an end. Spinning up their service division and providing new services like my proposed CLAU - Clean Lubricate Adjust and Upgrade would be a forward thinking approach which may provide a long term sustainable business model.

 

As for your arguments that things are made in the far east. Circuit board vendors will make whatever you want. You provide them a design and they will manufacture whatever you want. These are all over the world and because it is highly automated, it doesn't benefit as much from low cost labor. It is more a matter of the rest of the supply chain and where you do final assembly. You can even order a circuit board with a unit volume of 1. Your design specifies the size, the drill positions and the layers for the printed circuits and masks like the printing on it and some robots will just make it. Here is an example. http://www.3pcb.com/?nadw=11 They will make 1 or 10,000,000 of them if you want. Once you get the volumes up you can even have the components soldered on the cards for you. The value that Leica would bring is engineering the circuit board and installing into the camera.

 

So none of this is really unreasonable. It is just a change of mindset as to where revenue is going to come from. Is it more selling widgets into an increasingly challenging market or is the roll of a capitalist to steer corporations into sustainable business model.

 

PS making a product which can be repaired and upgraded just might be more environmentally sustainable as well. 

[dkCambridgeshire]

I don't think that your argument actually is correct. Yes there is the way it has been done but once a product has reached a level of sufficiency, it is really hard to overcome market saturation. The whole camera industry is contracting. The challenge is coming up with a sustainable business model and that is sustainable not in the sense of ecological sustainability but in the sense of continuing revenue streams. Planned obsolescence or feature churn is one such business model but when you reach market saturation and sufficiency, that is very hard to sustain. 

 

We see it all over the place companies are looking for new business models. Software companies are doing subscriptions. e.g. Lightroom and Creative Cloud. Computer hardware companies are selling services e.g. IBM and Oracle. Even old manufacturing companies are converting to a subscription model. e.g. GE and Rolls Royce jet engines. Even GM is playing around with Maven a "mobility as a service". 

 

The Era of make widgets and continual consumption is coming to an end. Spinning up their service division and providing new services like my proposed CLAU - Clean Lubricate Adjust and Upgrade would be a forward thinking approach which may provide a long term sustainable business model.

 

As for your arguments that things are made in the far east. Circuit board vendors will make whatever you want. You provide them a design and they will manufacture whatever you want. These are all over the world and because it is highly automated, it doesn't benefit as much from low cost labor. It is more a matter of the rest of the supply chain and where you do final assembly. You can even order a circuit board with a unit volume of 1. Your design specifies the size, the drill positions and the layers for the printed circuits and masks like the printing on it and some robots will just make it. Here is an example. http://www.3pcb.com/?nadw=11 They will make 1 or 10,000,000 of them if you want. Once you get the volumes up you can even have the components soldered on the cards for you. The value that Leica would bring is engineering the circuit board and installing into the camera.

 

So none of this is really unreasonable. It is just a change of mindset as to where revenue is going to come from. Is it more selling widgets into an increasingly challenging market or is the roll of a capitalist to steer corporations into sustainable business model.

 

PS making a product which can be repaired and upgraded just might be more environmentally sustainable as well. 

 

 

Upgrading digital cameras' internals has been discussed previously within the forum particularly as regards changing the sensor - and it's sensor technology which provides the major improvement. Without being able to use the latest sensors cameras will lack performance. Using the latest sensors requires much more than new circuit boards. Sensor developments will likely change the way cameras are designed - and manufacturers who do not use them will fall behind in the sales race. Not possible to whack a new type of sensor into an existing camera without a very significant redesign. 

 

dunk

[bencoyote]

Upgrading digital cameras' internals has been discussed previously within the forum particularly as regards changing the sensor - and it's sensor technology which provides the major improvement. Without being able to use the latest sensors cameras will lack performance. Using the latest sensors requires much more than new circuit boards. Sensor developments will likely change the way cameras are designed - and manufacturers who do not use them will fall behind in the sales race. Not possible to whack a new type of sensor into an existing camera without a very significant redesign. 

 

dunk

 

It is absolutely true you can't just take one sensor and unsolder it and replace it with another sensor and do a firmware update and it will work but you are misunderstanding both those old threads and what I'm arguing for. Maybe I could be a bit more precise and say, the sensor logic board assembly. 

 

Sensors and their processors are very tightly coupled. However replacing one sensor and processor assembly with another which has the same mounting screw positions, the same headers for flex cables,.. and mounting it in the same case is done all the time. Many times through the life of an electronic device they will silently change the circuit card to a new revision.

 

Leica does this to one extent or another with the M240 M240-P and the M monochrome are basically the same case with slight variations in the sensor and logic board. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the next M had the same case as the M240 and a new sensor and logic board. In fact you probably could mount a sensor and logic board from a 262 in a 240 and maybe vice versa with some compromises.

 

When you send your M or T in for repair if the main board has failed, they simply replace it. Whether the sensor is part of this assembly, I don't know off hand but both would need to be replaced. This upgrade program would be the same, they simply replace the sensor and logic board assembly with a new generation one.

 

The advantages to Leica is they:

1) convert sales revenue into periodic service revenue. This can be staffed and scheduled. 

2) they don't need to compete with their installed base. The used market of older products wouldn't cannibalize the sales of the next generation of the product.

3) they help justify their product as investment grade and therefore the price.

4) Any unsold stock doesn't suddenly lose value because it can be upgraded and sold as new

5) they boost their volume of logic boards and sensors bought during their initial purchase from their vendors reducing cost/unit

6) they have a customer contact with an opportunity for new sales for accessories like lenses

7) they can build momentum around a product line rather than having to churn to make revenue figures

8) special editions could continue to remain special and usable.

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[Yuhau]

Coming from M ... the T2 if there will be one , can take on a larger sensor similar to M8 .. Giving a lens magnification factor of 1.3 ..

while everything can remain the same as T 

 Reasons:

Better image quality .. Even help with the Bokeh 

Since T 1 firmware is started to mature and stabilized out .. Like any good doctor will say .. leave wellness alone .

The current T lens can accommodate this slightly larger sensor size.

Give current T user some incentive to upgrade .

Differetiate itself from all successful APSC cameras like Fuji, Sony and Ricoh .

 

My 2 cents worth