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"it's a Professional Camera"


rodluvan

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when the SL i being critiqued for being e.g. expensive and cumbersome the response isn't seldom that it is a professional camera 

 

since when are these "Professionals" mythical creatures that accept expensive and disagreeable gear? it's a complete non sequitur that often goes unchallenged. if anything they value low cost, functionality, quick service and replacements, a large set of peripheral equipment and quality. less that the camera looks good and is chiselled out of a single block of aluminium (or whatever)

 

in my mind, cumbersome and expensive cameras adorned with luxury brand-names are exclusively acceptable to enthusiasts not having to rationalize the cost and can live with the quirks, as being able to pay the bills doesn't hinge on the camera 

 

(obv, this does not only go for SL, but it's the camera de jour)

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There are many kinds of professionals, you know. I think when Leica says professionals, they mean celebrity fashion photographers, successful photographers with a lot of money, some wedding photographers...etc. Many of whom already use Leica M and S cameras. I don't think the average pro can afford or even have any interest in Leica.

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When criticizing the camera du jour or, indeed, any camera for it's price, it would be well to look at the prices of some comparable products, whatever you'd accept as "comparable".

 

So how much is a Leica M with a reasonable lens set covering the range of the only zoom lens available at the moment for the SL; how much a Canon or Nikon or whatever "comparable" brand dSLR or EVIL with comparable features?

 

Just looking at the price tag of a single item of merchandise and crying "too much" is counter-productive.

 

Yes, I can see that in order to really become a "professional" camera, the number and range of the available native lenses is a bit small. But then, professional camera systems should last for more than just one season, so there's still time for the SL system to grow into that role, I hope.

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Is the SL unusual (for Leica) in having only one lens available at launch (though it is a zoom that covers the same range as most M lenses)? The T had 2 lenses (1 prime, 1 zoom). How many S lenses were available at launch?

 

My point being, if Leica has only limited capacity to develop new bodies and lenses in parallel, we should not be surprised that we have one body and one (versatile) lens at launch. They're not going to launch a new lens without a body, so perhaps the best they could do was launch the body as soon as they could get the first lens out of the blocks - at least those who have M & R lenses can use it immediately. Of course the right time to launch a new system is when you have 2 or more lenses and others imminent, but I guess that has not been an option for a company of Leica's size. 

 

On the question of professionals..... Whenever anyone says what a professional expects, or will or will not buy, another professional contradicts them. We all see the world through our own glasses. Just saying....as an amateur.

 

Edit. I declare an interest: I have my name down for the SL, but not the lens. And I am mildly surprised they didn't instead launch a longer FL zoom at launch, since that would be complementary to the M. And I am very surprised they didn't have an intelligent R-L adapter at launch.

Edited by LocalHero1953
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I don't think anyone can just launch a camera on the market and call it a 'pro' camera. It may be aimed at the pro market. 

 

I honestly don't see the SL as a 'pro' camera - by which I mean the majority of customers for it - mainly because of the lack of pro spec lenses for it (fast zooms and primes - and no, I'm not including M lenses or s/h R glass - pro's don't generally buy s/h) and from the initial feedback on here it looks like most sales will go to current M users.

 

The Leica S is more of a 'pro' camera, but I understand that the majority are bought by wealthy amateurs. Clearly it is a pro spec system (larger sensor, leaf shutter lenses etc).

 

At the same time many pro's use what we would otherwise call enthusiasts cameras - e.g. Canon & Nikon APS-C and 'lower end' FF bodies like the 5d/6d, Fuji's, etc.

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i actually think that the SL checks several "professional" boxes....speed, handling, choice of first lens (in reality this range is the one and first lens everybody uses, the noctilux is not a professional lens) certain features....there are several areas where it fails: support, availability (rental,...) and the biggest one: price...its hard to justify getting less (in terms of specs) for so much more money.....

there is also the real issue of problems with the sensor....one can discredit tests or testers but there is visible banding when you try to open up shadows in a way that anyone working with DSLRs in the last 3 years is used to.....especially professionals who might have gotten a shot under less then perfect conditions and need to save a shot....don't forget that your client probably has a high end sony/nikon/canon and PS at home and they use the highlight shadow sliders as well.....they might be impressed by the red dot but they wont be impressed if they see that the performance is lagging behind the system they have at home....bought at best buy....

 

leica lost me (and many others) as a professional company when they announced the S as a studio and professional camera for commercial photography with MF size files and usb 2 as a way to tether to a computer.....this is a huge, huge, huge reason to use a camera like this (or digital back) and tethering has to be bulletproof and is expected and a given on any commercial shoot....there is no way anyone will wait 10sec for a file to come in.....usb 2 for huge files like that is just a clear sign of complete ignorance about what people actually need....

 

i think the SL is a much, much better (so is the new S btw) solution but the price is just out of proportion.....you can get several full sony, canon or nikon systems with 2 bodies for the price of SL and 24-90....

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My needs in a system (small footprint, light weight, decades-familiar interface) are more akin to those of amateurs than pros, and truth be told I've seen more stunning, breathtaking images from amateurs than professionals, so it really doesn't impress me that much or impact my purchase decisions whether a camera is chosen by pros or not.  But apparently to a lot of amateurs it does hold sway, because it has long been used as a marketing tool.  The truth is no camera company other than maybe a cottage-industry view-camera builder could survive if only pros bought their gear.

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Whenever I see or read any literature on a new product touting how 'professional' it is, my mind automatically registers that as hot air marketing-nonsense-speak and ignores the word. Then I study the product to determine whether it meets my standards for 'pro-grade' build quality, design, and performance. 

 

Products can be pro-grade ... meaning: well made, built to last and be used hard, designed with suitable subtlety and performance that incites motivation to use them, with reliability and consistency, et cetera ... completely independently of whether so-called "pros" will find them acceptable, usable, and warranting a purchase. For a professional photographer, equipment is a means to an end, making a living, and whatever achieves that best, whether cheap and nasty or ultra high end pricey, is all that really matters within the context of the pro's P&L statement. 

 

In a sense, calling a new system "professional" is like Subaru naming a tarted up econobox sedan with a paint stripe a "Limited" or "GTO", or like Vivitar calling the latest of their bazillion of nearly identical slow, cheap midrange zoom lenses "Ultra-Macro".. It has no real meaning. 

 

Studying the design and control organization of the SL this past week and some through the manuals and online reviews, testimonials, et al, and knowing the kind of robust quality and attention to detail and subtlety that Leica lavishes on these sorts of products, I think it's fair and justifiable to call the SL a pro-grade camera, regardless of the as-yet difficult to assess minutiae of its measured performance. Whether it is professional, as in a camera that a lot of professional photographers must will have in order that their business remain competitive, is a questionable assignation and one best assigned after the camera passes muster and is found to be sneaking into a bunch of photographers' work lives and equipment kits. 

 

That's how I see this "professional camera" stuff. :-)

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What kind of "professional", exactly? And what kind of gear and how much of it does a "professional" actually need? Newspapers and photojournalism, commercial, studio, sports – there are all kinds of professionals. I was very impressed with some portraits for magazines by a photographer using a Hasselblad and just a couple of lenses.

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There is no such thing as a "professional" camera. It's a marketing term designed to get amateurs to but more expensive gear in the vain hope that their boring as bat poo photos will miraculously be printed on the cover of Nat Geo. Everytime I see it's use I wonder why the company needs to market it this way rather than relying on the actual capabilities of the model.

 

The SL is a "professional" camera the same way CPS and NPS are "professional level" services (they are not, although they used to be. You don't need to be a working photographer to join. Anyone is welcome as long a you are prepared to pay.)

 

Most actual professional photographers I know, (either by vocation or attitude) place absolutely zero weight on the word "professional" when it is used to describe gear. About as much as they do for "celebrity photographer" endorsements.

 

Whether the Leica SL will become a camera of choice for professionals will depend on how Leica develop the system and whether working photographers see it as a system with the requirements to do the job.

 

Gordon

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Leicas are expensive and it's a given. It's also well engineered and has a strong pedigree. People who know their cameras and photography know this. However in the luxury market this is not a given as there are many folks with new money aspiring to acquire the best.

 

This is the reason why luxury product companies talk about their heritage, their innovation, their workmanship, their use of exotic materials, their adoption by people of repute as brand ambassadors, in their advertisements. You often see Sean Connery in Louis Vuitton ads. Does he actually use these bags? I am not sure. But he is recognisable and LV wants him as a brand ambassador.

 

For a camera company, use by professionals or 'people deemed professional' is important. Like Henri Cartier Bresson and the many photo journalists who used Leicas. I am sure Leica features many others in their campaigns. People well known in the business, people who use Leicas (of course they may use other cameras).

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There is no such thing as a "professional" camera. It's a marketing term designed to get amateurs to but more expensive gear in the vain hope that their boring as bat poo photos will miraculously be printed on the cover of Nat Geo. Everytime I see it's use I wonder why the company needs to market it this way rather than relying on the actual capabilities of the model.

 

The SL is a "professional" camera the same way CPS and NPS are "professional level" services (they are not, although they used to be. You don't need to be a working photographer to join. Anyone is welcome as long a you are prepared to pay.)

 

Most actual professional photographers I know, (either by vocation or attitude) place absolutely zero weight on the word "professional" when it is used to describe gear. About as much as they do for "celebrity photographer" endorsements.

 

Whether the Leica SL will become a camera of choice for professionals will depend on how Leica develop the system and whether working photographers see it as a system with the requirements to do the job.

 

Gordon

 

Well said Gordon.

 

I propose this forum should forbid the words "professional camera", it should be auto-deleted once someone write it.

 

As side note, even a lomo camera can deliver a product that a customer wants. Everything is about to know what a customer needs and if he/she/they like a particular look or your personal style. When you have a camera, C,N,S,O,H,L etc., from the very beginning you may know what is the look or style you want to give and deliver but if out there is a camera, because the way is build regardless if is cheap or expensive and the result minimise the time to spend in the darkroom/lightroom (and time is money), what should you do? I'm against "photographers" that before taking/making a picture said. "I fixed in post"...(YES! i realise, Eureka! Now I understand why is so important the banding...if you are "professional photographer" and you need to open your shadows +4, +5 you most be the best in your town!)

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So much gobbledegook and ranting. IMHO - The use of Professional" to me means the camera is weather sealed and therefore renders itself available for use in all climes' & situations, additionally, performance of the camera and lenses is paramount...

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