M246 sensor spots: What is this?

[BjarniM]

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I've just noticed that my M246, which i got in june, has many spots and some stripes in the images.

 

Download the full quality sample picture in the bottom in this post

 

I mounted a new Summicron 35 mm on the camera when i bought it, and the lens has never been taken off the camera. Therefore dust from changing lenses is not an option.

 

I always take very good care of my equipment, and the camera has never been exposed to dust or moisture. Therefore i also don't consider this to be an option to the spots and stripes that can be seen in images.

 

The post continues under the picture

 

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Even if i can "only" count some few spots in this picture, i loose the number of all the spots when tweaking different parameters in Lightroom with the raw DNG

 

The camera has been used very little, because of a back injury i got shortly after buying it, and the camera has for the most part been stored safe in my photo bag (which is perfectly clean and dust free).

 

Do you know why the spots and stripes are on the images from the camera? What could be the explanation?

 

You can download the raw DNG and tweak and tune different parameters in Lightroom/Photoshop to see the spots and stripes more clearly here: http://we.tl/QOnkScHIGa (WeTransfer link, expires on October 17'th)

Edited October 10, 2015 by BjarniM

[Frase]

It is just dust, doesn't matter if you never take the lens off camera/lens is not completely sealed could also be a little oil from the shutter its just part of having a digital camera.

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[BjarniM]

It is just dust, doesn't matter if you never take the lens off camera/lens is not completely sealed could also be a little oil from the shutter its just part of having a digital camera.

That would make sense if the camera was several years old and had taken many thousands pictures and had been traveling extensively and exposed to dust, which isn't the case here - just the opposite.

 

The camera is almost unused, and there are maybe hundred spots (you can see this if you tweak the full DNG) in the pictures the sensors captures.

Edited October 10, 2015 by BjarniM

[Frase]

I could understand this if the camera was some years old and had taken many thousands pictures and had been traveling extensively, which isn't the case here.

 

The camera is almost unused, and though there are maybe hundred spots (you can see this if you tweak the full DNG).

I've found especially with canon cameras the sensors are very dirty when new and need a good clean. Maybe it left leica a bit dusty or has been handled at the camera shop.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Frase

[John Perkins]

I've found especially with canon cameras the sensors are very dirty when new and need a good clean. Maybe it left leica a bit dusty or has been handled at the camera shop.

I have not looked at these images and just trusting it is bad like reported theb a $7,600 camera made by a company that prides itself on craftsmanship should not have 100 dust or oil spots if stored since new.

 

To the OP, call the dealer you bought it from.

[250swb]

That would make sense if the camera was several years old and had taken many thousands pictures and had been traveling extensively and exposed to dust

No, most dust happens when the camera is new and the parts are bedding in and the movement of one part against another is shedding bits of oil and such like. Think of it like your new car engine, the first oil service comes up pretty quickly because after running the engine in the oil is dirtier than it will ever be. So you need to do a service and clean your sensor.

 

Steve

[BjarniM]

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Maybe it left leica a bit dusty or has been handled at the camera shop.

 

It didn’t look like the box had been opened before i got it, so i don’t blame the dealer.

 

 

To the OP, call the dealer you bought it from.

 

I've just sent an email to the dealer.

 

 

So you need to do a service and clean your sensor.

 

Oh, dear. I don’t know what i like less – sending the camera in for service already or try to clean the sensor myself, since i haven’t tried that before and don't want to take any chances with a camera at this cost.

Edited October 10, 2015 by BjarniM

[dkCambridgeshire]

The M 240 and M246 have a dual action type shutter with an 'open-close-open-close' action when the cameras are in live view and spot metering modes.

 

The additional shutter movements have greater potential/propensity for generating friction dust and/or displacing lubricant which can cause sensor glass 'spots'.

 

Other camera manufacturers use vibrating sensors to shake off sensor dust and debris. 

M240/246 users should be aware that their sensors will inevitably require cleaning and thus be prepared to clean the sensors themselves. 

Bear in mind that when Leica Mayfair technicians clean any M camera sensor, they also thoroughly clean all around the shutter - thus removing any dust which might otherwise migrate onto the sensor filter.

 

​There are a number of sensor cleaning tools and products available; any search engine will find them - as will specific/advanced searches within this forum. 

 

dunk

Edited October 10, 2015 by dkCambridgeshire

[250swb]

 

 

Oh, dear. I don’t know what i like less – sending the camera in for service already or try to clean the sensor myself, since i haven’t tried that before and don't want to take any chances with a camera at this cost.

 

Some people have carpets that are more expensive than a M246, does that stop them scrubbing the wine stain out or using the vacuum cleaner?

 

You could try working up to this gradually. Get a Rocket Blower and see if that shifts any dust, if it does you will feel better about cleaning it. Not that blowing dust around is a good long term solution, the bit you just moved may still be in the camera waiting to fall back on the sensor, but it will show the way forward is to learn to do-it-yourself, and it's far easier than putting up some shelves or painting the shed.

 

Steve

[BjarniM]

Thanks for the input - all of you.

 

M240/246 users should be aware that their sensors will inevitably require cleaning and thus be prepared to clean the sensors themselves.

Thanks for the information, which i know as well after nine years experience shooting with digital cameras. But i just did not expect this to happen so fast, but rather after a year or two after many, many thousands pictures and extensive use. Because – as i wrote earlier – the camera has seen so little use as i did explain above.

 

You could try working up to this gradually. Get a Rocket Blower and see if that shifts any dust, if it does you will feel better about cleaning it

I’ll wait until my dealer replies with an answer.

 

 

I've not experiencd this with other brands

 

Before going all-in with Leica, i had been shooting with Canon and Fuji, and had never experienced something like this - never ever! Neither did i experience something like this with Nikon, which i did use before switching to Canon and Fuji. Even after 30.000 pictures with Canon - and changing lenses frequently as well - it did not even get anywhere as close as being this bad.

 

Maybe a bit off topic in regards to the question i raised in this post, but is this adequate from Leica’s side – delivering a camera to 7.500 USD that hasn’t been used much (because of the reason mentioned above), where the sensor already is covered with nearly hundred small spots?

 

Would you demand a factory clean for free?

 

Do you think this is "out of all tolerances" according to Leica's standards?

Edited October 11, 2015 by BjarniM

[thighslapper]

You are not specifying what aperture your 'dust' shot was taken at .........

 

It is virtually impossible to get a sensor 'dust free' at f16 as even the most miniscule specks show up.

 

If virtually nothing is visible at f8 or above I would leave it. 

 

Most of what you see will vanish with a quick few minutes with a blower ..... if not a wet clean with any number of commercially available gadgets/solutions will be fine.

 

If you check these threads you will find plenty of similar tales ....... and it seems to be entirely random and inexplicable ..... those of us who have had a few Leicas will have had the odd one that is more prone to this problem than the others.

 

It will have left the production line dust free ....... it's the rattling about in transit and other factors which will have caused this .......

 

..... and as said above ...... with the mechanical shutter arrangement/type in a Leica there does seem to be a period of 'cr*p dispersal' in early use that settles with time.

Edited October 11, 2015 by thighslapper

[BjarniM]

You are not specifying what aperture your 'dust' shot was taken at .........

 

It is virtually impossible to get a sensor 'dust free' at f16 as even the most miniscule specks show up.

 

If virtually nothing is visible at f8 or above I would leave it. 

 

Most of what you see will vanish with a quick few minutes with a blower ..... if not a wet clean with any number of commercially available gadgets/solutions will be fine.

 

If you check these threads you will find plenty of similar tales ....... and it seems to be entirely random and inexplicable ..... those of us who have had a few Leicas will have had the odd one that is more prone to this problem than the others.

 

It will have left the production line dust free ....... it's the rattling about in transit and other factors which will have caused this .......

 

..... and as said above ...... with the mechanical shutter arrangement/type in a Leica there does seem to be a period of 'cr*p dispersal' in early use that settles with time.

 

The test photo in this post was taken at aperture 16.

 

The thing is, i can see severe spots on some of my landscape photos, where the aperture usually is 5.6 - 8, not just in this test photo.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Sensor dust in inevitable with any interchangeable lens camera; no camera is immune. If any interchangeable lens camera's sensor is examined the chances are that it will show dust. Your M240 camera's 'tolerances' are probably fine.  Fact is, shutters have moving parts; moving parts require lubrication; moving parts generate friction; moving parts displace dust and lubricant; friction causes wear; wear results in dust/debris. Leica do not make the shutters - so don't blame Leica because you sensor glass has inevitable dust/lube debris. A new car engine tales a while to 'run-in' and thus displace all the friction generated gunk into the lubricant ... which is cleaned out at the first oil /oil filter change. Similarly a new camera shutter can initially have a higher propensity to generate micro-gunk which requires cleaning. Some owners are apprehensive about embarking on the sensor clean learning process but if approached carefully and methodically it is just routine maintenance - and there are lots of videos accessible online which demonstrate how to proceed.

 

Enter 'sensor cleaning' into the forum search engine at the top of this page to access the many sensor cleaning threads available. 

 

dunk

Edited October 11, 2015 by dkCambridgeshire

[John Perkins]

What did your dealer say?

[250swb]

Would you demand a factory clean for free?

 

Do you think this is "out of all tolerances" according to Leica's standards?

No I wouldn't 'demand' anything, I think just asking politely will get you a sensor clean for free. But it is an inconvenience for you because while it may take only five minutes for you to do it yourself at home you have to take your camera to the dealer and wait, or send it away and wait. So you are shooting yourself in the foot just by 'demanding' something.

 

And no, it is not 'out of tolerance' dust is everywhere in to the environment anyway, neither Leica nor any other manufacturer as yet offers a force field to repel it.

 

Steve

Edited October 11, 2015 by 250swb

[BjarniM]

Sensor dust in inevitable with any interchangeable lens camera; no camera is immune.

 

Of course i’m aware of that, but i still think this just isn’t ok, with regards to the problem described in details above.

 

What did your dealer say?

 

He offered a free sensor cleaning – either at the store or at Leica.

 

No I wouldn't 'demand' anything, I think just asking politely will get you a sensor clean for free.

 

I do not agree with you on this one. Buying a camera to that price i simply - from a buyers perspective - demand more than this was the case.

 

Severe sensor dust after only 300 pictures, even the camera hasn’t been exposed to dust in any way - the camera hasn't almost been used at all. Does this sound normal to you, for a camera costing 7.500 USD?

Edited October 13, 2015 by BjarniM

[algrove]

I have owned more than 6 M-240 and each and every one exhibited dust spots before 1000 shots. I tend to send mine into to Leica to clean and inspect the camera since one can do that for 2 years in the US and 3 years for CLAing lenses at no charge.

 

Also if the OP has used Canon then one must realize that the 5D3 sensor cleans/vibrates upon startup AND on shutdown.

Edited October 13, 2015 by algrove

[dkCambridgeshire]

Of course i’m aware of that, but i still think this just isn’t ok, with regards to the problem described in details above.

 

 

He offered a free sensor cleaning – either at the store or at Leica.

 

 

I do not agree with you on this one. Buying a camera to that price i simply - from a buyers perspective - demand more than this was the case.

 

Severe sensor dust after only 300 pictures, even the camera hasn’t been exposed to dust in any way - the camera hasn't almost been used at all. Does this sound normal to you, for a camera costing 7.500 USD?

 

Camera price does not ensure immunity from sensor glass dust. Sensor glass dust and soiling, and shutter actuation crud, is a fact of life for ICL cameras and to expect that none should occur with a Leica is a bit like expecting a Rolls Royce or a Ferrari car never to need washing and valeting and the screen wash never to need topping up. Previous comments attempted to advise that the M246 shutter is not made by Leica and that any new shutter is likely to generate dust from friction and initial wear and there is also a risk of new shutter lube splatter as a result of its newness and bedding-in. My previous post also mentioned the M246's dual action type shutter with an 'open-close-open-close' action which doubles the shutter actuations in live view and spot metering modes. 

 

Despite trying to explain how a sensor glass soils, you seem adamant that none of the foregoing should affect your camera because it's a Leica and it cost you $7500 US. 

 

Your best course of action might be to consider learning how to clean the camera's sensor glass and shutter and accept the fact that such routine maintenance is the norm.

 

When you persist in insisting that your your camera should be immune from sensor soiling because of its newness and brand you are in denial of the natural laws of physics. 

 

As suggested previously, enter 'sensor cleaning' into the forum search engine at the top of this page to access the many sensor cleaning threads available. 

 

If Leica cameras were immune from sensor glass soiling those threads would not have been necessary.

 

dunk

Edited October 13, 2015 by dkCambridgeshire

[250swb]

Does this sound normal to you, for a camera costing 7.500 USD?

It is normal, and should be expected given the camera specification does not list any built in sensor cleaning mechanism, the absence of such is clear for all potential buyers. My M246 has shown a lot of dust during the first 500 exposures, but it is diminishing rapidly as the camera mechanism beds in and I clean it. It isn't nearly as bad as the M9 which threw oil onto the sensor as well as dust. And price has nothing to do with dust, Leica dust is neither more or less expensive than Canon or Nikon dust, but perhaps the Canikon owner doesn't expect miracles.

 

 

Steve

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[Doc Henry]

Hi BM,  what I will say now is not a provocation , but I have two digital cameras which cost me more than 11,000 Euros (12,000 Usd) with 6 Leica lens , all bought new at a Leica store. Leica is expensive as you know and as I've known for 40 years now.

All digital cameras with a sensor can have dust (in my experience of 5 years in digital), especially if you often change optics.
This is normal as said Steve   and must not panic. I do not know what happens in other brands because I am exclusively Leica.

 

That said we must learn to clean yourself your sensor with a pear or an air bomb (or a compressor like me)  as in your case.

Now if you do not want dust on the sensor and if it stresses you , go to film like me with an MP and M7.  No  dust on the sensor  and in addition colors and b&w are beautiful , without any correction as in this thread "I like film "

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/

 

My 2 digital M are now used as back up cameras and often stayed in my Billingham  bag .

 

Best regards

Henry

Edited October 13, 2015 by Doc Henry