Typ 246: How long is the learning curve?

[BjarniM]

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Hi there!

 

I've now had the new Monochrom for two months, but i'm doubting how long the learning period should be.

 

Still i haven't been able to shoot that single picture that makes me feel: Yes, that picture makes it all worth the buy.

 

I've just been doing test shooting so far, since my experience from before tells me that it's important to master the camera to a certain degree to be so confident with a camera that it feels natural enough to just be a tool.

 

My pictures just seems flat and missing both the contrast and that "pop" in the pictures. I have even tried orange filter in landscape photography.

 

This is my first digital Leica. How long do you think the learning curve and period should - or could - be for a digital Leica newcomer?

[Jeff S]

Have you used and learned a digital workflow (including editing and processing software) with another camera?   What editing software are you using?  

 

The Monochrom is of course primarily different (apart from the RF aspects) as a result of not having a color array, which means being careful to not blow highlights when shooting, and not having color channels available when processing.  Otherwise, the concepts for creating pics are similar to most other digital cameras.  One needs a desired end result, and the understanding of the editing tools to achieve that desired look (and the ability to discern where and how the picture needs work).  

 

People learn differently, but frustration can arise from not having a vision to start and/or not having sufficient understanding and control of the editing tools (and underlying concepts).  Plus, the most important part....an image that excites to start....there's no rule of thumb on the learning curve or timing for that.

 

Maybe we can better help if you provide some more background information.

 

Jeff

Edited August 14, 2015 by Jeff S

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[250swb]

My pictures just seems flat and missing both the contrast and that "pop" in the pictures. I have even tried orange filter in landscape photography.

 

 

I think 'pop' with any camera requires some post processing, and just using a filter isn't going to get where you want to be. It's a software job, the same as the original MM. Try Silver Efex and don't be afraid to play with the contrast and structure settings, but if you don't have it (yet) go to the cameras JPEG options where you can try different settings and get a feel for what the camera itself can do. Obviously JPEG isn't as good as the .dng option long term, but it may give you some confidence in applying your own adjustments via a .dng. You can't do anything wrong, you can only do what appeals to you.

 

FWIW I have the M246 and find it a dream to post process it's .dng's but while they aren't as flat as the original MM they do require a bit more of an adjustment to get the 'pop' because there are more pixels at work to make the base image even more subtle.

 

Steve

Edited August 14, 2015 by 250swb

[BjarniM]

Maybe we can better help if you provide some more background information.

 

Jeff

Sure. I should of course have included this in my first post.

 

I'm using Lightroom, and sometimes Photoshop. Earlier i only did some minor adjustments, mostly edit exposure a little as well as highlights and shadows, which was enough to get results i was satisfied with.

 

I would use 90% of the time shooting, and 10% editing, since i don't fancy images that are edited too much. I would try to get things so right as possible when shooting and not in processing.

 

With the new Monochrom it's just the other way around - now efforts in post processing is eating time from me, having less time being out and about shooting, which i think is annoying.

 

Before i've been using Canon and Fuji for the digital part and Leica for film, but decided to divorce Canon and Fuji, since i liked the film Leica with lenses so well, that i never thought i would regret my choice.

 

I'm very pleased with the RF system, exceptional sharpness of Leica lenses and the small size of Leica, which makes me take my camera(s) with me everywhere.

 

Overall i'm happy with the switch to Leica, but not so happy with the end result - mostly boring and flat contrast, missing the "pop" which i felt was easier with Canon and Fuji.

Edited August 14, 2015 by BjarniM

[Jeff S]

 

 

With the new Monochrom it's just the other way around - now efforts in post processing is eating time from me, having less time being out and about shooting, which i think is annoying.

 

 

 

Maybe you're not taking advantage of LR or PS capabilities, including presets upon import that might provide a better start point.

 

Processing needn't be a chore once you make the tools work for you, and that comes with experience.  Not sure how you like to learn (video vs book vs workshop, etc), or what you've already checked out, but there is lots available on LR....books by Kelby or Evening, free Adobe tutorials by Julieanne Kost and others, and lots more.  A search will bring up loads of similar forum discussions.

 

I never loved the darkroom, but learned to use it to my advantage, and always recognized that it was essential for a fine print.  LR has spoiled me....lots more flexibility, efficiency and convenience....but still requiring a disciplined workflow (from camera to print).  None of it, however, detracts from my love of shooting; it's all part of an integrated process.  In part, I suppose it depends on one's perspective.  For me, If an image is potentially frame-worthy to start, then processing time and effort is always worth it.  Most of the effort though is the fine tweaking....generally it's not difficult to get in the ballpark pretty quickly.  You should be able to do the same.

 

Jeff

[BjarniM]

I think 'pop' with any camera requires some post processing, and just using a filter isn't going to get where you want to be. It's a software job, the same as the original MM. Try Silver Efex and don't be afraid to play with the contrast and structure settings [...]

 

Steve

 

By saying i have tried an orange filter i meant to point out that i even tried filters, but stille i am struggling with flat images.

 

Maybe i'll try Silver Efex, as you are suggesting, but i would be happier if i did know better how to master the camera to a certain degree or level before i surrender to Silver Efex, so i guess i have to put some more effort in the test shootings first.

Edited August 14, 2015 by BjarniM

[Jeff S]

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Your issue isn't needing to switch software....they're all capable, and require learning....or test shootings.  You need to learn to use LR and/or PS.  In LR, you should pay particular attention to the tone curve section of the Develop module.  As I wrote, there are many resources on the issue.

 

Jeff

[jbl]

Keep trying. And simplify. I'd say ditch the orange filter in favor of yellow or no filter just to make things easier. My limited experience with orange on the M246 has made things complicated.

 

Last weekend, I decided to try and force myself out of my photographic element (I'm a 50mm guy), so I went to 75mm and 90mm. I was pretty miserable and was thinking about everything too much. Eventually I said "enough torture, go back to what you know." I was much happier after that and even ended up with a killer shot at 75mm :-).

 

If you don't like what you're getting so far, just keep at it until you like it. It sounds like you're an experienced photographer, learning a new medium (which is what you're doing) involves dedication. My wife wants to be a better photographer and I tell her you have to power through when you're hating every single photo you're taking

[jaapv]

The learning curve is in the postprocessing. Once you have figured out how to handle the files you will be as quick as you were with cameras with colour output. At least you don't have to fiddle around to get the colours just so.

 

If you want to cut the learning curve to 2 hours and ten minutes it will cost you 63 $:

 

http://mingtheinstore.outthink.us/photoshop-videos/9-photoshop-workflow-for-the-leica-m-monochrom.html

[250swb]

By saying i have tried an orange filter i meant to point out that i even tried filters, but stille i am struggling with flat images.

 

Maybe i'll try Silver Efex, as you are suggesting, but i would be happier if i did know better how to master the camera to a certain degree or level before i surrender to Silver Efex, so i guess i have to put some more effort in the test shootings first.

 

Silver Efex offers presets that could well get you very close without any massive amounts of time spent.

 

But there is a paradox in your expectation. You say you "don't fancy images that are edited too much", yet that is exactly what your Canon and Fuji comparators are doing in their camera software to give the 'pop' you like/want. Many of us appreciate that Leica interferes far less with the base image, so it isn't an artificial act to boost the contrast a bit more, or to compensate for the Leica's cruder metering by altering the brightness in the final image, you are just setting the image to your own 'preset' standard, not the one Fuji decide you should like. Traditionally far more time was spent in the darkroom than out shooting, but one tip that all darkroom users learnt very early on was to spend time only on the images that justify it. So if you shoot three hundred pictures and edit them down to a reasonable hit rate of perhaps ten, spend one minute on each post processing, you've spent ten minutes post processing. Is that too long to spend post processing?

 

Steve

[Joakim]

I agree with everyone here who says you need to invest time in learning post processing, even if it might seem like a big hurdle it is an investment with excellent returns. I have had the camera for about the same time as you and for me it is almost a surprise how little time I spend processing each photo and if you follow Steve's recommendation and edit down the number of photos to process the total time is quite low. 

[horosu]

By saying i have tried an orange filter i meant to point out that i even tried filters, but stille i am struggling with flat images.

 

Maybe i'll try Silver Efex, as you are suggesting, but i would be happier if i did know better how to master the camera to a certain degree or level before i surrender to Silver Efex, so i guess i have to put some more effort in the test shootings first.

I'd suggest to try DxO Film.

[Manoleica]

Hi, are you shooting DNG or jpeg?  Mac or PC?

Why not settle on a basic subject, flowers, car, chairs etc,, in jpeg - Then PP on your computer with the basic photo app..   Learn the results of the PP and then go forward..

Advanced PP is difficult if you don't exactly know what your really looking for.. Once you have mastered PP and consistently get the results you need go back the DNG..

How where the results on your previous digitals?

[Overgaard]

I think the right light is what is the breakthrough. Soft light with sparkles will do the trick I think. I find it hard to get good results in sunshine. 

 

http://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M-Monochrom-Type-246-Digital-Rangefinder-Camera-black-and-white-sensor-page-28-The-Leica-M246-Goes-to-Paris.html

[Jeff S]

 I find it hard to get good results in sunshine. 

 

 

IMO because you use a very limited array of LR tools, which can be efficiently applied.  Good light is still key, but for me (now with the M240...but generally true) that includes many types of light.

 

Jeff

[Likaleica]

To the OP, wow... 246 as first digital Leica.  I like your style.

[thighslapper]

You are expecting miracles........

 

90% of all the images you shoot will be crap ..... not your fault ..... just a photographic fact of life ........

 

9% will be ok but nothing to write home about

 

1% if you are lucky may be something special ....... but even then most will need some work to get the best from them........ try some off the wall things with SEFXpro 2 and you may be surprised what you get ....... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/247316-at-the-window/

Working solely in B&W just makes all this depressingly much more obvious ..... and technical deficiencies cannot be hidden by colour and are emphasised by the resolution of the camera with Leica lenses.

 

Unfortunately my friend you are in the same boat as the audiophile who buys very high end hi-fi only to discover that all his discs sound terrible as it exposes the crappiness of the original recordings.....

 

Stick with it..... it will be worth it in the end .....

[Guest jvansmit]

Im not much of a perfectionist when it comes to post-processing but I had much the same frustrating struggle when I first got the M246, and floundered about to get the look I was used to with the MM1 and M9.

 

Now I get much closer in a few seconds by adjusting exposure, setting a medium contrast curve, and then using much more clarity in LR6 that I was used to to...sometimes as high as +30. LR6 seems much more tolerant of high clarity than earlier LR versions, and there is less risk of that horrible HDR look.

 

I also find that I need to do quite a lot of dodging & burning, and sometimes add some local clarity too (for example, on patterned textiles). I also routinely expose at -2/3 EV.

 

i used to routinely use Silver Efex (high structure preset) with the CCD cameras but now hardly ever use it.

[BjarniM]

Thanks for all your input and comments, which are useful.

 

Your issue isn't needing to switch software....they're all capable, and require learning....or test shootings. You need to learn to use LR and/or PS. In LR, you should pay particular attention to the tone curve section of the Develop module. As I wrote, there are many resources on the issue.

Jeff

Maybe it’s worth a shot for me to take a closer look at PS/LR.

 

 

Keep trying. And simplify. I'd say ditch the orange filter in favor of yellow or no filter just to make things easier. My limited experience with orange on the M246 has made things complicated.

I have ditched the orange filter deep in my bag, have ordered a yellow filter and will try to use filter less in the coming weeks.

 

 

If you want to cut the learning curve to 2 hours and ten minutes it will cost you 63 $:
http://mingtheinstore.outthink.us/photoshop-videos/9-photoshop-workflow-for-the-leica-m-monochrom.html

I will consider that option.

 

 

Silver Efex offers presets that could well get you very close without any massive amounts of time spent.

But there is a paradox in your expectation. You say you "don't fancy images that are edited too much", yet that is exactly what your Canon and Fuji comparators are doing in their camera software to give the 'pop' you like/want.

[...]

So if you shoot three hundred pictures and edit them down to a reasonable hit rate of perhaps ten, spend one minute on each post processing, you've spent ten minutes post processing. Is that too long to spend post processing?

Steve

Maybe i’ll check if there’s a trial version of Silver EFEX.

Maybe there’s a paradox. I believe it has something to do with the images the Typ 246 produces out of the camera compared to my Canon and FujiFilm; Typ 246 produces cleaner and neutral images, if i could describe it simple.

 

 

Hi, are you shooting DNG or jpeg? Mac or PC?
Why not settle on a basic subject, flowers, car, chairs etc,, in jpeg - Then PP on your computer with the basic photo app.. Learn the results of the PP and then go forward..
Advanced PP is difficult if you don't exactly know what your really looking for.. Once you have mastered PP and consistently get the results you need go back the DNG..
How where the results on your previous digitals?

DNG and MAC.

The first weeks i was using the camera, i wasn’t doing anything else then shooting test objects to get to know the camera.

 

The results with my Canon and FujiFilm wasn’t so hard to achieve the results i wanted. Maybe – as i replied to the earlier comment – it is because the Typ delivers a clean and neutral DNG, i think.
 

 

I think the right light is what is the breakthrough. Soft light with sparkles will do the trick I think. I find it hard to get good results in sunshine.

http://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M-Monochrom-Type-246-Digital-Rangefinder-Camera-black-and-white-sensor-page-28-The-Leica-M246-Goes-to-Paris.html

Thanks for the informative article. I did read it, and will be taking some of the things, you mention in your article, into consideration.

 

 

To the OP, wow... 246 as first digital Leica. I like your style.

Thank you. I made the choice after reviewing my earlier pictures, which were taken with a Canon 5D mk II and a FujiFilm X100s, after i realized that most of the pictures, i was very happy with, were B/W pictures and not color pictures, though they both are color cameras.

 

 

You are expecting miracles........

90% of all the images you shoot will be crap ..... not your fault ..... just a photographic fact of life ........

9% will be ok but nothing to write home about

1% if you are lucky may be something special .......

Yes, i know that drill. Have been shooting on amateur basis for 25 years, and i still shoot a lot of “shit” and i’m still aware of the vast majority of the pictures are not keepers.

That being said, i didn’t realize – prior to buying the Typ 246 – that i was thrown so heavily “back to basics” with the monochrom. With all the frustration it's almost like going back to the first years shooting film, where things seemed so impossibly difficult.

 

 

Im not much of a perfectionist when it comes to post-processing but I had much the same frustrating struggle when I first got the M246, and floundered about to get the look I was used to with the MM1 and M9.

It’s not that i’m glad to hear that you (also) are experiencing problems after buying the Typ 246, but in some way it helps to know that i’m not alone having a hard time getting used and confident enough to master the camera to get the pictures, i want.

Edited August 16, 2015 by BjarniM

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[horosu]

I think the right light is what is the breakthrough. Soft light with sparkles will do the trick I think. I find it hard to get good results in sunshine.

 

http://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M-Monochrom-Type-246-Digital-Rangefinder-Camera-black-and-white-sensor-page-28-The-Leica-M246-Goes-to-Paris.html

I totally agree. Sunshine is where film excels.