Jump to content

Outstanding bugs - Manual focus issue


Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi all,

 

The T still has one major bug for me:

 

In Manual Focus (using either T or M lenses, and single or continuous mode)

You can't use the 12 shot image buffer without being blinded by the image preview.

 

Compare this to auto focus, you take a few shots, the image is displayed in the LCD, however as soon as you half press the shutter, it goes straight back to live view.

With Manual focus you have to wait until the entire buffer is written to card.

 

I am presume the auto focus system turning on is what cancels the image preview. 

So in manual mode, you are just stuck waiting and waiting till the buffer is cleared.

 

A fix would seem quite easy to implement, which would be to make a half press of the shutter in manual focus mode also cancels the image preview.

 

I feel this would greatly increase the usability of the camera.

Does this annoy anyone else?

Does anyone else have any other outstanding issues with the T?

Edited by haydenc
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I use MF a lot (about 790 shots over the weekend and I never touched AF) and believe it or not I have never noticed this. I don't tend to use continuous or very fast frame rate. If I'm taking successive shots, I'm recomposing or adjusting the exposure and so this never really even came up for me.

 

My complaints in MF mode are:

1) I want to have a way to make the DOF scale always visible (even in AF mode). For example there are times when I want both the histogram and the focus scale.

2) I want one more number on the focus scale. This one is hard to explain but there is something about the current system that makes it hard to interpolate. I need one more reference point to be able to really get make the logarithmic scale make sense in my brain. I just feel like there is one number missing between 2m and infinity.

2b) or I want the focus scale to specifically label the end points of the red bar and I think that the red bar should be kind of shaded to better indicate how in focus things are

3) I want the focus scale without having "focus assist" and the zoom 3x or 6x times. I do a lot of focusing by estimated range finding and I don't want to momentarily lose sight of my composition as I adjust the lens. 

4) reprogram the video button to be zoom in focus assist 

 

What I really want are T lenses a bit more like the M, X, and Q lenses.  

1) physical stops on MF ring and maybe with a focus tab so that I can MF by muscle memory without looking at a scale on the screen. Verbalizing it would be something like "all the way to the right is infinity" "6:30 is 1.5m" "1m 5:30"

2) I would like a focus scale on the top of the lens so that the camera can be asleep and I see something developing I hit the shutter halfway to wake the camera up, and glance down to see the focal distance set on the lens and I can be dialing that in based upon my mental estimation of the distance while the camera wakes up. I don't want to have to wait for the camera to wake up and then check the back of the screen when I'm trying to be discrete or shooting from the hip. As it is, there is no way to know how far you are focused without bumping the MF ring to bring up focus scale and looking at the screen.

3) i would also like an aperture ring on the lens. Being discrete you don't want to be looking at your screen. You want to look down and set aperture and focus then just click the shutter. This is less important because I can sort of keep track of what kind of aperture I'm using so I can get away with just having focal distance on the lens but really I would love both.

4) (not related to MF but) weather sealed with a rubber gasket along flange where mates with the body.

 

I'd be so happy with the same 23mm lens optically but with an aperture ring, and a MF ring with a focus scale, a tab and mechanical stops.

 

Alternatively Sony has a new system on some new lenses, they put a small OLED display in the lens showing the focal range. Rather than an analog scale, put the aperture and the focal range in a small display on the top of the lens.

Edited by bencoyote
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Ben,

 

Yeah it is a strange one as to me it is a glaringly obvious bug that annoys me massively every time I use the camera.

 

The way I shoot is to focus manually via viewfinder without any focus aid, then fire off 3-5 shots at different intervals, then recompose and focus again and then take another burst.

I do this for taking portraits, people blink etc, and of kids they jump and move so quickly. However I am blinded the whole time of what I am shooting. I normally move the camera away from my eye and just shoot and hope for the best.

That is absolutely not right for such an expensive camera.

 

If you want to see the bug I am talking about: (I don't shoot this way, just to glaringly show the issue in action)

Use Manual Focus.

Use the internal memory (as it is slow and makes the issue stand out more than using a fast card)

Turn on continuous shooting

Now focus and compose.

Fire off 12 images filling the entire buffer.

Point the camera a new subject

Half press the shutter.

At this point all you will see in the lcd or viewfinder is the last image taken. It is not until the entire buffer is written out that finally the viewfinder becomes live again.

Compare this to Auto Focus, in the last step above a half press of the shutter cancels the last image taken preview and goes to live view.

If you still have images being written out and you release the half press, it will go back to image preview.

 

That is why I believe it is the auto focus system that cancels the image preview and hence why the bug is only there for manual focus.

I have tested all manual focus situations ( T lens, M lens, R lens) and also both continuous and single shot mode.

The bug is present in all of these modes.

 

Can other users of the T please test this and report if your T also has the same problem.

Thanks Hayden

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing that I've found working in open source software for a long time is that there is the way that things are intended and expected to be used by the developer and the testing department which is often initially guided by the original software author. And then as you increase the number of users they have different ideas about how things should work and do things in truly unexpected ways. This leads to uncovering all sorts of new bugs. I don't know how many times I've gotten a bug report and I look at and think, "they are doing what? Does that even work?"

 

Your way of shooting, MF with a quick succession of shots sounds seems very unusual. It sounds to me like just like that sort of problem that would be overlooked by the developer and a testing department.

 

Good SW engineering/support would be:

1) track the bug

2) prioritize the bug

3) fix the bug

4) confirm the fix 

5) add a test to the overall plan

6) release the fixed firmware

 

and in general release often with small numbers of changes seems to be the best way to catch unintended problems with a fix or a new feature and keeping customer satisfaction high.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is that there is not consistency.

It works differently in Auto focus to Manual focus.

 

Why would auto focus half pressing the shutter cancel the image preview when the buffer being cleared, but in manual focus it wouldn't.

 

I can understand Leica testing manual focus by enabling the magnification focus aids, focusing, firing off a shot, then enabling the focus aid again and repeating that.

That is such a slow way to work.

 

I never use the focus aid.

For me the manual focus is great as once I have focused, unless the subject moves, I can fire off lots of shots and they will be in focus. Then I recompose, focus again etc.

It is exactly the same way I work with the M240.

 

Re bug testing etc. I have reported this issue to support in Australia 12 months ago, then support in Germany every few months and also I have worked with someone that does a little bit of testing for Leica.

As it stands, a year later of owning the camera, it still has a bug that annoys me every time I pick up the camera.

I still am not confident that it is in the right hands at Leica as it should be a relatively simple fix.

 

(I too have worked in software testing. My last role was Environment (computer) manager for a large bank in Australia. My role was to over see new deployments of code into our testing Environments before the testers did their part.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Also I know a lot of people (via the wonders of Facebook user groups) that have purchased the T to work along side their other Leicas.

So their intention is to use it with M lenses and manual focus.

They for whatever reason don't like the user experience and have quickly moved to offload the camera.

I am willing to bet a lot of those people have run into the issue I am describing and thought it was a limitation of the camera.

I spent a long time working out exactly how and when this issue came up. I initial thought it was only using the M to T adapter, however is also present with T lenses in manual focus as well. So it is ALL Manual focus combinations that the bug is present.

 

I have found other bugs too, however have just been trying to get one fixed.

 

For example:

Another bug is when you use an external flash, (manual focus again) if you manually set your exposure setting to cut all ambient light, the viewfinder is blacked out as it is simulating the exposure.

You can't focus at this point or compose.

I can take a shot and the flash exposes the image perfectly.

Contrast this to auto focus again, in the same situation, if you half press the shutter, the LCD is gained up (brightened up) enough so you can see what you are shooting and also to see which auto focus point is selected.

 

I know I might use these cameras a bit differently to the norm, but they should be able to handle these situations with ease.

At least give the user the ability to turn off the 'exposure simulation' of the LCD/viewfinder especially when using the camera in full manual mode!

 

Leica please help!

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 months later...

Did you get 1.4 or 1.410?

 

What I did was put the camera first on AF then on MF, Drive mode Continuous.

Shoot a few frames.

Pause for a second while the buffer starts to drain.

Move the camera observing the display.  Previously, this is where I would see the problem in MF. You couldn't see to shoot until the buffer drained and _then_ the display would update. Now it updates the display and I can see to resume shooting.

Shoot a few more frames.

 

Could we have observed two different phenomena? It seems to work for me.

Edited by bencoyote
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not seeing the same.

Mine is 1.41.

 

Can you test something for me?

If you take a shot in MF and take a pic but then immediately half press the shutter, does it hold the preview of the image taken for as long as you hold the half press?

 

Mine does, and always has done this. (Not in Auto just Manual focus)

Link to post
Share on other sites

After a little more testing on the above...

 

In Manual focus.

If you take a shot and then immediately half press the shutter the following happens:

 

1. It will hold the preview for as long as you hold the half press

2. It will not start processing the image from the buffer until you release the half press. 

 

So for an example. 

If you fire off 5 shots, and then hold the half press of the shutter immediately after the last shot taken, it will then hold the image.

Then if you then release the half press, it will start clearing the buffer, counting to 8, then 9 through to 12, and only after the buffer is fully cleared, then the live view comes on. 

 

Ben, or anyone else can you please test this to see if you see exactly the same behaviour? 

 

I have taken more test shots with this camera pin pointing this fault than I have actual shots in the last 12 months. 

 

I have been writing about this bug for over a year now.

eg 16 Sept 2014 after Firmware 1.2 was released :

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/233942-firmware-12-available-on-the-leica-site/?p=2670586

 

I have reported this to Leica support so many times and each time have been assured it has been passed onto the product manager only to find is has not been addressed.

I am still waiting a year later after owning the camera and I only very rarely use this camera as this is such a big issue for me. 

Edited by haydenc
Link to post
Share on other sites

Haydoc I can confim that behavior but it is extremely hard to reproduce. Because of how hard it is to reproduce and because there may have been two behaviors one of which is now fixed involved. I wonder if part of the problem may be not that Leica is ignoring you but rather that they couldn't make it happen as reported. Imagine the telegraph game going from Leica support to the firmware developer.

 

I would report it again but I would describe it as "taken photo buffer pauses draining to SD card when shutter button is half pressed while in MF mode" and then point out that live view is paused while the taken photo buffer drains. What you really want is live view to resume even while the buffer drains but it seems like what exacerbates it is the pausing of the draining of the buffer while you continue to hold the shutter down.

 

This is really hard to reproduce. I cannot do it with just 5 shots I need to almost fill be buffer by just firing in drive mode to make the lag enough to catch the difference in behavior. This makes me wonder how fast your SD card is? If you have a slow card in there, then maybe a bigger part of the problem is the amount of time it takes your buffer to drain. Also I wonder why in MF mode you hold the shutter button half the way down pausing the draining of the buffer?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the reply!

 

I am using the internal memory to pin-point exactly where the issue is. And also turning on DMG and Fine Jpg so it is writing the most data possible to slow down the process. 

I agree it is not as noticeable with a fast SD card, however there is a bug. 

 

The manual focus issue I have described above is what my problem is. The holding of the image/not processing the buffer is part of it, however not the complete problem.

It is the combination of the half press of the shutter not going to live view & also the image being held/not processing if you jump the gun.

 

So now if I use Manual focus, I have to either lift my finger off the shutter button and wait till the live view has come back, then take another shot. 

However I bought a camera with a 12 image buffer, not a camera with a 1 image buffer. 

 

If you use Auto focus, the half press of the shutter cancels the image preview so you can shoot and see what you are shooting. 

I think it is not to much to ask to be able to have the same thing for manual focus. 

 

I shoot very quickly manually. If the distance from the subject hasn't changed I want the ability to fire off more shots (so I don't get people blinking and get a number of expressions etc) and still see what is happening through the live view. 

As it is now, I am blinded by the image preview the way I shoot. 

 

I am surprised that more people aren't annoyed by this, or just accept that this is normal behaviour when clearly it is a bug and has been since firmware 1.1 when I first bought the camera. 

 

(I have been shooting professionally here and there for over 10 years as I owned a Graphic Design company for 12 years. 

I have 9 Leica cameras with the main ones being X2, M240, M6 and T. As well as those I have a full Canon SLR set up.)

Edited by haydenc
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ben, re-reading your comment, are you saying the original problem on your camera is fixed?

 

That is if you fill the buffer with more than 1 image on in Manual Focus, you can get back to live view by half pressing the shutter?

 

Firmware: 1.4.10

 

 

Mine I still has the 2 problems in Manual Focus being:

 

1. If more than 1 shot in the buffer, I am blinded by the image preview until the last shot is written out, then live view comes on. (no way to cancel it and switch to live view like in Auto focus mode)

 

2. If you jump the gun and half press too quickly after taking a shot, it holds the image preview AND also halts the processing of the buffer.

 

Can you confirm that number 1 is fixed on your camera?

Thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites

I went to Leica office in Melbourne and met with one of their technicians and a sales guy.

I was able to demonstrate these 2 separate bugs to do with Manual Focus and also another to do with a "exposure simulation" problem if you use manual exposure controls to cut all ambient light, the lcd or Evf is completely blacked out (also with manual focus).

For those interested in that problem, if you use Auto focus in that instance, when you push the shutter halfway to turn on the auto focus, it gains/brightens up the screen so you can see via the lcd/Evf till it gains focus, then the exposure simulation kicks back in and goes black.

So I wish there was a way for exposure simulation to be turned off.

 

When I met with Leica in Melbourne, they hadn't seen these issues.

I was able to test one of their T cameras and it showed all 3 faults described here along with my camera.

Their camera was on the old firmware 1.31 mine on 1.41.

These problems must also be effecting all T cameras.

 

They have asked me to make a video showing the bugs and steps taken to get them so they can work with Germany to get them resolved.

 

As mentioned before, I have been reporting these issues to Germany for 12 months without any resolution.

 

If these issues also effect you, please can you raise them with your local support too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
  • 4 years later...

Date now  November  2020, so five years on and as far as I can tell this issue has STILL not been resolved by Leica !!!

I say this because I have the latest firmware and in effect can not use use my CL in a studio environment with flash equipment !!

Given the cost of Leica cameras and the reputation of the company would you not think they would resolve this issue ?

Surely this is not beyond the wit of man or should I say Leica ???

This issue ruins what is otherwise a half decent camera !!!!!!!!!!! 

Edited by Duddingston
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Duddingston said:

Date now  November  2020, so five years on and as far as I can tell this issue has STILL not been resolved by Leica !!!

I say this because I have the latest firmware and in effect can not use use my CL in a studio environment with flash equipment !!

Given the cost of Leica cameras and the reputation of the company would you not think they would resolve this issue ?

Surely this is not beyond the wit of man or should I say Leica ???

This issue ruins what is otherwise a half decent camera !!!!!!!!!!! 

Can you explain what behavior is getting in your way? I don't understand. I've read the entire thread and tried to replicate all the issues articulated, but just can't seem to make any of it happen.

My camera is a Leica CL firmware 4.0, M Adapter L firmware 1.0 (I don't have any AF lenses, only M or R lenses. Shouldn't make a difference..?).

Setting the camera to Manual exposure and setting ISO 200, 1/125 sec, f/8 exposure (my typical flash setting) in a dim room Exposure Preview set nets a black LCD. Turning Exposure Preview off for manual mode nets a bright screen for viewing and framing; turning on Magnification Assist defeats the Exposure Preview, but that doesn't matter since I usually open up the lens for critical focusing to the widest aperture at which I can still see clearly (usually f/4). This is usually stopped down far enough to eliminate focus shift issues on lenses so afflicted; only one of my lenses is so afflicted that I have to bother worrying about it. So I can't see what's getting in the way of using the CL in a studio environment with flash equipment. 

Regards the other issues that haydenc refers to, I just can't get any of those things to show up. Of course, he's referring to a T, not a CL ...

I would love to know more what problem you're running into; I'm mystified. 

G

 

Edited by ramarren
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...