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Has Leica abandoned it's digital M customers?


trond

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I think the M240 is a done deal by now, for solutions look to the new iteration, I fear.

 

 Do you think that the recently alleged FW update was just a tease Jaap?

Edited by rafikiphoto
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There are many reasons for firmware updates, for instance new lenses. Those updates will keep coming, and who knows for sure? certainly not me. But I doubt that we will see a structural update.

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It's not clear that a firmware upgrade will be a good thing. The last one with changes to the GPS handling made it worse (putting you at "nowhere" after five minutes without a satellite signal).

 

Anyway - presumably the Kravitzed and brand advertising versions pay for themselves and are not created by the firmware programmer; so misallocated resources don't explain the shortage of updates.

 

Perhaps the stagnation is due to lack of cooperation from the firmware runtime library suppliers - I guess Epson for the EVF routines, Fujitsu for the OS, a Swiss company for the GPS, a Belgian company for the sensor, whoever for the SD controller chip... It would be surprising if these suppliers still provided support for the components of the M.

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Overall I'm pretty happy with my 240. It's only locked up on me once. But I do feel that the camera can be improved via firmware updates. There are software related issues like the green shadows and fixed noise pattern at high iso. The white balance and color science certainly could be tinkered with. 

 

 

Fixed noise pattern, ie banding. Is probably not something that can be fixed by firmware, it is the fault of the hardware.

 

 

Some people say that it's almost three years old and therefore we shouldn't expect anything. That doesn't seem quite right. As far as I know the 240 is  the most expensive full frame digital camera on the market. Leica sells itself as a premium brand, but frankly I don't see them delivering premium customer service.

There hasn't been an update in quite some time, while long standing issues continue to linger. This is doubly annoying when you see resources devoted to such nonsense, as the special editions.

On the other hand Fuji is has issued substantial updates for cameras that are no longer in production and cost a fraction of the 240. Now that's customer service and why they have an extremely loyal following.

 

 

3 years isn't that old. That's a normal lifespan for a high end digital camera. Canon has lifespans in this range for their pro and enthusiast bodies as to most makers of medium formats. Some digital bodies are on 5 year product cycles.

 

For example, Canon provided a version 2 firmware for the 7D in 2012, this was already a 3 year old camera being launched in 2009. This was a significant update, it doubled the cameras effective buffer size through more memory efficient firmware.

It's most recent update is from December 2013, to fix a problem with a wireless file transmitter grip.

Edited by Mornnb
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I don't personally own an M yet however when looking to buy one information like this can be quite offputting. Granted, any machine will have some glitches when first releassed. It is the speed and efficiency that the manufacturer responds to resolving the issues that matters. Leica's response and efficiency should be along the same lines as that of Apple.

 

If 3 years is old does that mean that we are getting a new model soon? :D

Edited by likealot
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I have a good high serial number M240 coming from a good source tomorrow for a good price, hopefully it will be fine because I really liked the one I took for a spin a couple of weekends ago, felt great in every way. If it is running well, it will have some 4,000-5,000 frames put on it during a ten day shoot as a 2nd camera this week. 

 

I have contacts at Leica NJ that have been great so I hope to keep a good relationship with them.....I think they are trying their best folks. 

Edited by Ai_Print
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My M seems to be reliable and stable. I've had one or two lock-ups since the new firmware update in maybe two years. Other than the GPC problems others report (I don't have the handgrip), I'd have to say the M is reliable and stable. I just pick it up and shoot it.

 

Only time I think about what a complete piece of over-priced crap the M240 is, is when I come here to the forum and read the arm-chair experts, non-owners and Leica bashers. Then, I feel bad and wish I had never bought it.

 

Otherwise, this has been my favorite camera, ever.

 

Recommended!

Exactly my experience.

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My M seems to be reliable and stable.  I've had one or two lock-ups since the new firmware update in maybe two years.  Other than the GPC problems others report (I don't have the handgrip), I'd have to say the M is reliable and stable.  I just pick it up and shoot it.  

 

Only time I think about what a complete piece of over-priced crap the M240 is, is when I come here to the forum and read the arm-chair experts, non-owners and Leica bashers.  Then, I feel bad and wish I had never bought it.  

 

Otherwise, this has been my favorite camera, ever.

 

Recommended!

 

This is very much my experience with every camera I have ever owned.  If you are making images with it that you are pleased with, then it is serving its purpose.  When I bought a 5d3 I worried that the d800 would make my camera obsolete (and so reddit and every camera forum argued), but it turns out that the marginal benefits just didn't matter to me and I have happily made images with that camera since about a month after it was released.

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Nothing wrong with my M I know what it does and doesn't do and am comfortable with it. I don't try and make it something it isn't.

 

It's one thing to be happy with your M, and what it does and doesn't do, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

No one that I can see is asking for the firmware to be updated to provide for AF or to turn the camera into something it isn't.  With your statement above, the clear implication is that those who want defects rectified are a bunch of dissatisfied whingers.  The fact is that for a lot of M owners, there is something wrong, it is apparently fixable by software update, or perhaps replacement of a defective part (if you have never had the camera freeze with the write light on), but Leica doesn't seem to be acknowledging the problem (see the months of denial over the sensor problems with the M9) or fixing it, or at least saying they are working on it (such transparency would be novel).

 

The point is, I'm very happy with my camera.  Extremely happy.  It does way less than yours (other than take pictures, obviously).  I don't want it to do anything more than what it does; but, I do want it to actually do what it is supposed to do without stopping, unexpectedly, and needing to have the battery removed.  That is not a "feature", it's a defect, and there's no reason Leica shop not jump to and fix it promptly, particularly when I paid, oh bout 10 times what the Japanese competition would charge ...

 

So, I'm happy for you - your camera doesn't have any faults.  Please, do not suggest that those who do have cameras with faults should be ignored.  I'm sure you didn't mean that, but your message is somewhat annoying for those who are trying to trigger a response from Leica.  At this stage, emails remain unanswered.

 

Cheers

John

Edited by IkarusJohn
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With your statement above, the clear implication is that those who want defects rectified are a bunch of dissatisfied whingers.  

 

...... and was ever thus ......

 

my partners Range Rover Evoque ..... in its rather short life ..... has had the rear differential replaced ..... with the replacement spare having to be replaced because it was also faulty, the EGR valve replaced twice, a spontaneous crack in the windscreen requiring replacement and then a big bullseye from stone 3 days after it was replaced. Last week there was a loud metallic bang followed by a sound like a flock of birds in the ventilation and it is now completely non functional. 

 

my jag is 6 years old and has never seen a spanner save for changing the oil ......

 

she is furious .....   I just shrug my shoulders and say 'thats life' in a complex technological world...... Murphy's law will always win out ....

 

if you talk to the technicians it's apparent that loads of bits of the car have been changed and modified over the last 2 years .... but the company never admits to it..... but there again they have a huge R&D facility down the road from me and millions to burn in getting things right as the stakes are very high. 

 

Leica is a veritable minnow by comparison .... and do remarkably well considering the limitations of a small company. 

 

Not excusing anything ....... just being pragmatic ...... and spending even 50k is no guarantee of a fault free product ......  :wacko:

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...... and was ever thus ......

 

my partners Range Rover Evoque ..... in its rather short life ..... has had the rear differential replaced ..... with the replacement spare having to be replaced because it was also faulty, the EGR valve replaced twice, a spontaneous crack in the windscreen requiring replacement and then a big bullseye from stone 3 days after it was replaced. Last week there was a loud metallic bang followed by a sound like a flock of birds in the ventilation and it is now completely non functional. 

 

my jag is 6 years old and has never seen a spanner save for changing the oil ......

 

she is furious .....   I just shrug my shoulders and say 'thats life' in a complex technological world...... Murphy's law will always win out ....

 

if you talk to the technicians it's apparent that loads of bits of the car have been changed and modified over the last 2 years .... but the company never admits to it..... but there again they have a huge R&D facility down the road from me and millions to burn in getting things right as the stakes are very high. 

 

Leica is a veritable minnow by comparison .... and do remarkably well considering the limitations of a small company. 

 

Not excusing anything ....... just being pragmatic ...... and spending even 50k is no guarantee of a fault free product ......  :wacko:

But how many miles per gallon does the M-240 get? Using a car as a comparison to a camera is like spitting into the wind.

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It's one thing to be happy with your M, and what it does and doesn't do, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

No one that I can see is asking for the firmware to be updated to provide for AF or to turn the camera into something it isn't.  With your statement above, the clear implication is that those who want defects rectified are a bunch of dissatisfied whingers.  The fact is that for a lot of M owners, there is something wrong, it is apparently fixable by software update, or perhaps replacement of a defective part (if you have never had the camera freeze with the write light on), but Leica doesn't seem to be acknowledging the problem (see the months of denial over the sensor problems with the M9) or fixing it, or at least saying they are working on it (such transparency would be novel).

 

The point is, I'm very happy with my camera.  Extremely happy.  It does way less than yours (other than take pictures, obviously).  I don't want it to do anything more than what it does; but, I do want it to actually do what it is supposed to do without stopping, unexpectedly, and needing to have the battery removed.  That is not a "feature", it's a defect, and there's no reason Leica shop not jump to and fix it promptly, particularly when I paid, oh bout 10 times what the Japanese competition would charge ...

 

So, I'm happy for you - your camera doesn't have any faults.  Please, do not suggest that those who do have cameras with faults should be ignored.  I'm sure you didn't mean that, but your message is somewhat annoying for those who are trying to trigger a response from Leica.  At this stage, emails remain unanswered.

 

Cheers

John

Not once did I say anyone should be ignored. It's not polite to put words in somebody else's mouth. You know the limits of the camera and yet you consistently try to exceed those limits. I believe, as others, that some of these so called defects are specific to individual cameras. Have you contacted Leica directly or are you counting on this forum to do that for you?

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Not once did I say anyone should be ignored. It's not polite to put words in somebody else's mouth. You know the limits of the camera and yet you consistently try to exceed those limits. I believe, as others, that some of these so called defects are specific to individual cameras. Have you contacted Leica directly or are you counting on this forum to do that for you?

 

Whoa, hold on.  Where am I exceeding the limits?  By taking photographs?

 

I'm certainly not putting words into your mouth - the whole point of your post was to suggest that those complaining have nothing to complain about. 

 

Edit - I've put in bold in both the quotes of your posts above.  The bold bit would have no meaning, unless you are suggesting as you do above that I'm trying to get the camera to do something it isn't designed to do.  What, I'm not sure - it only takes stills and has no continuous shoot function, it doesn't make JPGs, so what, in your expert opinion, am I doing wrong?

 

Thighslapper - I understand your point entirely.  I have had numerous issues, small and large, fixed by Leica, Audi, Ducati, Volkswagen and many others, and I have absolutely no problem with that, provided the company fronts up and fixes it with minimal fuss.  To date, Leica has been exemplary in this respect.  I'm relatively compliant and I pay when it's my responsibility.  I would have thought I'm a dream customer - I enjoy my cameras for what they are, and not what they're not.

 

But, I don't expect a problem to be ignored, or to be ignored myself, for that matter.  I have escalated the issue and hope to get a sensible reply soon - at least, I expect to have my email acknowledged.

 

Back in the day when I had a Discovery, I was similarly philosophical.  From the time the car was new, the little door covering the petrol filler cap refused to stay closed.  With total reliability, I'd close the cover, push it to make sure it was locked closed, and it would then fly open when I closed the driver's door.  I identified the fault when the car was first serviced (there was a reasonably long list of faults, if I recall correctly).  Most faults were repaired (though at no stage did all the lights on the car work all at the same time - I was forever replacing bulbs), but not that petrol cap cover in the 6 years I owned it.  I resorted to putting a big piece of red duct tape over it. At the expiry of the three year warranty period, Land Rover even tried to say it was out of warranty ...

 

One day my wife met a guy at the service centre.  He was driving a new Cayenne - it turned out he had previously owned a Discovery of the same year.  For him, the ABS kept failing (light coming on).  He took it back about three times, and then gave Land Rover a last warning - fix it, or take the car back.  They said no problem it's fixed.  Absolutely sorted.  He went over the speed bump on the way out of the service centre, and the ABS light came back on (and stayed on).  He got out of the car, left the keys in it and walked away (and got all his money back, which he spent on the Porsche - very happy).

 

I loved that Discovery, and I took it off road almost as much as on road, but it did test my patience sometimes (it stopped completely dead in a carwash one day - the owner of the local Land Rover dealership appeared following my distress call and got me going again).  Conversely, Audi's warranty contract is that they pay for everything but petrol and tyres for three years - warrant of fitness, everything.  

 

So, Leica - simple issue.  There is a fault with my camera.  I am not alone.  Fix it.

 

Cheers

John

Edited by IkarusJohn
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Whoa, hold on.  Where am I exceeding the limits?  By taking photographs?

 

I'm certainly not putting words into your mouth - the whole point of your post was to suggest that those complaining have nothing to complain about.

 

Again, you assume that's what I meant. I'm not the only one that said I have no problems.

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