Has Leica abandoned it's digital M customers?

[trond]

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Dear All,

 

I have a nagging feeling that Leica HQ has forgotten an ignored it's digital M users!

 

One year now and counting, and still no FW update to the digital M 240 platform cameras.

 

There are a number of seemingly simple problems to fix, by no new FW updates for the M 240 for more than one year.

 

I posses, and are still using most M cameras from my M3 SS (except the M5), up to and including my M P (Typ 240) and M Mono (Typ 246).

 

I still enjoy analogue M, and they "chew" T-MAX 100 ISO 30 ft by the numbers.

 

Fine as the M 240 is, there are a number of annoying problems that are easy to fix, but still no new FW from Leica HQ after more than one year.

 

Have they forgotten us?

 

But seriously, whay not fix what can be improved or polished!?

 

One very annoying feature I encounter almost every day, is the completely imbesil control FW of the GPS MF grip, and not to mention SD card problems and EVF lockups!

 

As an example, I went to PhotoKina last year, and stayed at a hotel (Marriott) close to the Køln Cathedral, a 25 minute walk to the PhotoKina exhibition area, a walk that is mostly in open air and in excellent view of the sky.

 

During this walk the M 240 GPS does not manage to get a single position fix for the whole walk!

 

After reaching the PhotoKina entrance, I had to sit down for more than ten minutes until the GPS got a position fix.

 

Traversing the streets of Køln for four days, my images have only a few GPS position fixes.

 

I contacted Leica about this problem, and they sent me a new GPS, only to experience the same problems thereafter.

 

I love the M lenses and enjoy the RF experience, but this is 2015 and Leica need to take the die hard M users seriously by fixing whatever problems that can be fixed in FW in a timely manor.

 

I realise that I am plain stupid, having spent close to 100k Euros on digital Ms and lenses since the introduction of the digital M8!

 

But I feel left out in the dark and ignored by Leica not making the most of what it should by releasing timely updates to the M FW.

 

Look at Fuji, they give customers a "new" camera even after several years, by issuing FW updates with new functionality!

 

The M 240 is a great camera, but it could be so much more if Leica only wanted and recognised it's responsibility to users already invested in the system.

 

I know that there are a lot of Leica fanboys out there that think that any change is "evil" and should note be implemented.

 

However, I think the community og photographers that genuinely would like the M to be as usable as possible, and this can be accomplished by FM updates.

 

I love the RF experience, but please save me from bad engineering, and fix the minor quirks, the M 240 could be a much better camera!

 

I am not asking for autofocus or 100000 ISO, I just want a stable predictable digital M RF camera, and I think there are many others that wish for the same!

 

Best regards

 

Trond

Edited June 21, 2015 by trond

[jaapv]

Problem: it is individual cameras and thus hard/impossible to solve by firmware. Some users have lockups, some don't. The same with SD cards. I think the M240 is a done deal by now, for solutions look to the new iteration, I fear.

But the GPS is a sad story... It should have been fixed - a long time ago.

 

I have a strong suspicion that what hasn't been fixed cannot be fixed - I suspect that the camera is running so close to hardware limitations that tolerance differences cause problems

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[trond]

Problem: it is individual cameras and thus hard/impossible to solve by firmware. Some users have lockups, some don't. The same with SD cards. I think the M240 is a done deal by now, for solutions look to the new iteration, I fear.

But the GPS is a sad story... It should have been fixed - a long time ago.

Agree, me fear too!

 

And the GPS continues to be completely useless, and is the most expensive non functional GPS grip you can get for any camera!

 

However, the M P 240 is clearly a more stable platform than the original M 240, so FW updates should be possible.

 

Also, SD card interface is not "rocket science", so a lot should be possible to do in that respect.

 

The same goes for graceful handling of lockups.

 

Bad engineering in the first place can almost always be fixed in FW if the desire to do so is present in the design department.

 

Cameras are individual, but it is a mostly digital design, and can be fixed in FW, except for problems related to bad power supply decoupling and SD synchronisation like in the M9 platform, caused by the "bean counters" saving 15 cents on a decoupling capacitor and proper power supply decoupling.

 

Some of these problems seems to have been inherited in the M platform.

 

However, the M P 240 is so close to being a "perfect" camera that many FW quirks an be fixed if Leica so desires.

 

There are a few camera manufacturers that understands this, Fuji and PhaseOne to mention a couple.

 

They understand the importance and commitment to honour and support it's customers after the first sale.

 

M 240 can still be so much more if Leica only wanted to continue the polishing by FW, and a lot of these fixes are very simple!.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

Edited June 21, 2015 by trond

[jaapv]

Hmmm.. My M240 classic is completely stable too, always has been, except for the heat issue.

[rafikiphoto]

.... except for the heat issue.

 

 

Heat issue...what is that? 

[Peter Kilmister]

Heat issue...what is that? 

 

A new one on me.

[jaapv]

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Under earlier firmware the camera+ EVF would lock up in ambient temperatures approaching 40 Centigrade, due to an overheating safety coming in prematurely.

[bocaburger]

Two M240's, two EVF's (Olympus badged), multitude of SD cards, zero lockups.  As for the GPS I don't own or want to own the multifunction grip.  The nekkid M240 is already bloated compared with film M's.  Maybe if GPS was built into the body I would find some use for it simply because it's there, Irdk.

[Peter Kilmister]

Thanks, Jaap. 40 degrees C is too hot for me. I appreciate the comment and I guess it is now fixed.

[mjh]

Under earlier firmware the camera+ EVF would lock up in ambient temperatures approaching 40 Centigrade, due to an overheating safety coming in prematurely.

I experienced this phenomenon when doing a series of shots of the Easter bonfires on the banks of the river Elbe (I used these for an article in LFI 4/2013). Near those fires it got uncomfortably hot both for me and the camera and the M did lock up twice. Taking out the battery did solve the issue so it wasn’t much of a problem.

[likealot]

I am surprised to hear that a state of the art £5000 camera has problems like these. And I am even more surprised to hear that FW updates are few and far between. Initial teething problems can occur with every new machine but they usually get resolved within the first year of the product life.

[mjh]

There aren’t any serious issues with the M or M-P (Typ 240).

[Jeff S]

I don't think Leica ever released a promised FW update to fix reported discreet mode issues for the M9.  I don't own an M9, and I suspect the issue couldn't be resolved by FW, but it would be nice if Leica would do a better job of regularly communicating with customers.  And even better if FW updates were more frequent and timely, something Fuji seems to do well based on what I've read.

 

Having said that, my M240 has been a gem, except for a 'mad scrolling' episode (reported here by a few others) some time ago that hasn't repeated.

 

Jeff

[IkarusJohn]

There aren’t any serious issues with the M or M-P (Typ 240).

 

Sorry, Michael (& Jaap), but this is completely untrue.

 

The lockup issue was reported months ago, and I have it on my M Edition 60 (no EVF, no Live View, no video, no LCD etc) - reasonably frequently the red write LED lights up and stays on.  This is only resolved by removing the baseplate and then battery (a pain if you're using a tripod).  The M Edition 60 has the 2GB and same processor as the M-P.  I know I'm not the only M60 owner who has experienced this problem.

 

I've had the camera for less than 6 months, and Leica isn't even responding to emails.  It's a bug, and no the M(240) cannot be described as stable, and not this is not an "individual camera" issue.  It's prevalent.  As the owner of a $16,000 camera, I'm a little peeved as well at the failure by Leica to respond on this issue.  It simply is not good enough.

[thrid]

Overall I'm pretty happy with my 240. It's only locked up on me once. But I do feel that the camera can be improved via firmware updates. There are software related issues like the green shadows and fixed noise pattern at high iso. The white balance and color science certainly could be tinkered with. 

 

Some people say that it's almost three years old and therefore we shouldn't expect anything. That doesn't seem quite right. As far as I know the 240 is  the most expensive full frame digital camera on the market. Leica sells itself as a premium brand, but frankly I don't see them delivering premium customer service. 

 

There hasn't been an update in quite some time, while long standing issues continue to linger. This is doubly annoying when you see resources devoted to such nonsense, as the special editions.

 

On the other hand Fuji is has issued substantial updates for cameras that are no longer in production and cost a fraction of the 240. Now that's customer service and why they have an extremely loyal following. 

Edited June 22, 2015 by thrid

[Manoleica]

Before buying these expensive and loved M's we obviously know what pitfalls and issues have already surfaced. We buy them knowingly, if we buy them with fingers crossed that we individually will not suffer the known issues "head in the sand time" buying them in the hope that Leica will update FW is a useless quest.

They are as they are! Speculation as to what causes these issues is as widespread and varied as the individuals that own/use these cameras. Maybe if Leica really knows the reasons for these issues they could and would release a FW update! The bottom line, if you don't like the price or the item or both as it comes out of the box, don't buy it" - a % of new cameras, cars, computers etc. etc. will always be faulty out of the box and most will be repaired or replaced without hassle. Some will remain troublesome throughout ownership. So, either Sell It" use it" or store it. Get over it" Move On.. Leica Did..

[k-hawinkler]

Before buying these expensive and loved M's we obviously know what pitfalls and issues have already surfaced. We buy them knowingly, if we buy them with fingers crossed that we individually will not suffer the known issues "head in the sand time" buying them in the hope that Leica will update FW is a useless quest.

They are as they are! Speculation as to what causes these issues is as widespread and varied as the individuals that own/use these cameras. Maybe if Leica really knows the reasons for these issues they could and would release a FW update! The bottom line, if you don't like the price or the item or both as it comes out of the box, don't buy it" - a % of new cameras, cars, computers etc. etc. will always be faulty out of the box and most will be repaired or replaced without hassle. Some will remain troublesome throughout ownership. So, either Sell It" use it" or store it. Get over it" Move On.. Leica Did..

 

Excellent advice.  If more folks followed that maybe Leica would have to get their electronic act together!

[thrid]

Before buying these expensive and loved M's we obviously know what pitfalls and issues have already surfaced. We buy them knowingly, if we buy them with fingers crossed that we individually will not suffer the known issues "head in the sand time" buying them in the hope that Leica will update FW is a useless quest.

They are as they are! Speculation as to what causes these issues is as widespread and varied as the individuals that own/use these cameras. Maybe if Leica really knows the reasons for these issues they could and would release a FW update! The bottom line, if you don't like the price or the item or both as it comes out of the box, don't buy it" - a % of new cameras, cars, computers etc. etc. will always be faulty out of the box and most will be repaired or replaced without hassle. Some will remain troublesome throughout ownership. So, either Sell It" use it" or store it. Get over it" Move On.. Leica Did..

 

I'm sorry, but that is complete and utter BS.

 

Leica charges a premium over all other manufacturers. Their entire branding is based on their supposed devotion to delivering the utmost in performance and reliability. German engineering at it's best, backed up by over 100 years of tradition, as they penultimate tool of the photographic world. And yet as they position themselves as a premium and professional brand, they often deliver substandard service for their flagship product, while devoting considerable resources to projects that range from secondary to frivolous.

 

Firmware is a software problem. This is not rocket science and the M firmware is a lot less complex than what you see in a DSLR. Most of the R&D for things like white balance etc was done ages ago and the information is widely available. The problem is that the company doesn't see their flagship product as a priority. All it takes is a few months with one or two programers, lots of field testing and not settling for 'good enough'. But you have to make that a priority over hanging out with celebrities and other projects that are secondary to the company.

 

Nobody who spends $8000 on a camera should accept sloppy work and poor service.  Que Sera, Sera is not an option. I've been shooting M's for over 20 years and it is very sad to see the company get this sloppy and unprofessional. Schandhaft!

Edited June 22, 2015 by thrid

[Rick]

My M seems to be reliable and stable.  I've had one or two lock-ups since the new firmware update in maybe two years.  Other than the GPC problems others report (I don't have the handgrip), I'd have to say the M is reliable and stable.  I just pick it up and shoot it.  

 

Only time I think about what a complete piece of over-priced crap the M240 is, is when I come here to the forum and read the arm-chair experts, non-owners and Leica bashers.  Then, I feel bad and wish I had never bought it.  

 

Otherwise, this has been my favorite camera, ever.

 

Recommended!

Edited June 22, 2015 by Rick

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[Manoleica]

thrid - Nobody who spends $8000 on a camera should accept sloppy work and poor service. Que Sera, Sera is not an option.

I totally agree with you, be it, cars, cameras or whatever, poor workmanship and or poor service is Always unacceptable.. Those who say I spent hundreds or maybe thousands and it's still not right only have themselves to blame..

BS, the world is lubricated by and spins on BS!