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M8 vs B&W film - examples


tashley

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Okey dokey....I don't do Lightroom and I am basing my comments on what I see on screen. I just don't see it.

 

I simply don't understand why people don't get that it's not an apples to apples comparison. If you want the look of B&W film, shoot film. Duh. The attitudes I'm seeing displayed when it comes to defending M8 files are getting wacky - and we are forgetting about why we're here in the first place - taking pictures.

 

I really could not agree with you more! I only did this as idle fun with no agenda, as a result of checking out some old film gear for my niece! I love an M8 file as much as the next man, provided it was shot on a post-fix camera at lowish ISO with filters on and so on and so on, but I am 100% sure that a man with a nice bit of film and a great scanner could show me the door. In fact, I think I'd better go look for it myself!

 

;-)

 

Best

 

Tim

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Okay - let's get this cleared-up, and move on to other more interesting and constructive threads:

 

- i'm afraid i never notice those tiny little PM indicators up in the top-right corner of the browser, so i missed your offline message

 

- i was actually really indignant at your tone dealing with fotografz. I personally felt that he made some reasonable observations, and that you unnecessarily attacked him. Apologies if i misread your intentions.

 

- i've attached the 'clipped' image with the pixels that are 255-255-255 changed to red. I personally feel that this doesn't really qualify as 'blown whites'

 

- i'm ABSOLUTELY not a film evangelist - as i said before. But the more i look at real film prints again (after a recent personal revival in the medium), the more i see some of the shortcomings of digital (even though it has many, many other strengths!)

 

- i do think that debates occassionally involve questioning a beloved object of affection - in this case, the M8. If you're happy with how you've spent your $5k, then a few words of disagreement don't need to undermine that satisfaction.

 

Below's the 'blown whites' picture - i assume you don't want me to treat the sky in your M8 capture to the same treatment?

 

Now let's move on.

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And here's the darn image:

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Okay - let's get this cleared-up, and move on to other more interesting and constructive threads:

 

- i'm afraid i never notice those tiny little PM indicators up in the top-right corner of the browser, so i missed your offline message

 

- i was actually really indignant at your tone dealing with fotografz. I personally felt that he made some reasonable observations, and that you unnecessarily attacked him. Apologies if i misread your intentions.

 

- i've attached the 'clipped' image with the pixels that are 255-255-255 changed to red. I personally feel that this doesn't really qualify as 'blown whites'

 

- i'm ABSOLUTELY not a film evangelist - as i said before. But the more i look at real film prints again (after a recent personal revival in the medium), the more i see some of the shortcomings of digital (even though it has many, many other strengths!)

 

- i do think that debates occassionally involve questioning a beloved object of affection - in this case, the M8. If you're happy with how you've spent your $5k, then a few words of disagreement don't need to undermine that satisfaction.

 

Below's the 'blown whites' picture - i assume you don't want me to treat the sky in your M8 capture to the same treatment?

 

Now let's move on.

 

All clear. Consider us moved. Just don't histogram my shot, please? Not in public. I haven't been that naughty...

 

Best Regards (really!)

 

Tim

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Tim, I was reviewing all the responses in this thread when I went back to the original images. I noticed that in the film shots there is a spire or chimney or some part of a building over the right side roof of the photographed structure. It's not there in the M8 shots! Wow! Interesting ramifications are now dancing around and through the old grey matter.

Regards,

John

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Tim, I was reviewing all the responses in this thread when I went back to the original images. I noticed that in the film shots there is a spire or chimney or some part of a building over the right side roof of the photographed structure. It's not there in the M8 shots! Wow! Interesting ramifications are now dancing around and through the old grey matter.

Regards,

John

 

Well spotted! I think it's because when I came to take the M8 shot 48 hours later, I was working from memory and that memory suggested that I had originally chosen an angle that exed-out the chimney. It' s very easy because of the relative angles involved to do that.

 

But it's always possible that the M8 just deleted it into blown-world. Don't think so. but possible!

 

 

EDIT: actually I had to step forward to get the same FOV on the pavilion, due to the difference between 35mm on the M8 and 50mm on the two film bodies. That's probably the reason.

 

Best

 

Tim

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Tim: Thank you for starting the thread. I found it very useful to see the same scene posted with both the M8 and the kind of real-world commercial film scanning many of us have to put up with.

 

As to the subsequent---ahem--discussion, let me paraphrase the original lyrics to Leonard Bernstein's Candide:

 

The flame and strife of online life is useful to the nation.

It is a harmless outlet for emotions that could lead to war

Or social agitation.

[Chorus] A brilliant explanation! :D

 

---Peter

(with apologies to Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche)

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Tim: Thank you for starting the thread. I found it very useful to see the same scene posted with both the M8 and the kind of real-world commercial film scanning many of us have to put up with.

 

As to the subsequent---ahem--discussion, let me paraphrase the original lyrics to Leonard Bernstein's Candide:

 

The flame and strife of online life is useful to the nation.

It is a harmless outlet for emotions that could lead to war

Or social agitation.

[Chorus] A brilliant explanation! :D

 

---Peter

(with apologies to Richard Wilbur and John LaTouche)

 

 

Thank you Peter, and what a giggle of a paraphrase. I might pin it up on my monitor, though whether its effect is to spur or deter is yet to be seen!

 

Best

 

Tim

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Guest stnami

Marc is pretty much as well spot on with his observations and notions on the initial presentation by TIm, unfortunatly we are back to my dog is better than yours and M8 pack mentality something expected as this is a M8 forum. The defense of I was only having fun is facinating ..................yeah but if the whole situation wasn't so sad it would be funny then

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Marc is pretty much as well spot on with his observations and notions on the initial presentation by TIm, unfortunatly we are back to my dog is better than yours and M8 pack mentality something expected as this is a M8 forum. The defense of I was only having fun is facinating ..................yeah but if the whole situation wasn't so sad it would be funny then

 

Imants, point heard.

 

Oh! to be a conservative radical! So romantic! So subversive of the current liberal world order, yet so sexy and intelligent! An adman's dream! It's positively Blairite and therefore to be admired!

 

I can feel the soft focus coming in even as I type! etc!

 

Sigh!

 

I aspire!

 

My dog is so much poorer than yours because it does not have any interest in anything other than a tree to piss on: whereas your dog wants to climb the tree and piss on the highest bough! I admire the ambition of the pooch but I pray that it does not fall and break its neck! That would be sad!

 

Woof!

 

Please excuse the use of exclamation marks throughout but really, you're worth it!

 

'nother woof!

 

t!

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shrug...........................lo stessi stessi ma differente :cool:

 

Loose translation, from one who has little Italian, the curse of evening classes:

 

"That which remains unchanged remains the same."

 

I quote Catherine The Great's Foreign Minister when questioned about Foreign Policy and the need to extend Her Domain:

 

"That which remains unchanged begins to rot."

 

So we agree? (More or less, who is to quibble over detail, digital or analogue?)

 

Best.

 

t

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Guest stnami

it means : same same but different.......... then there are digital negatives:) .............................................but that is a different story............interesting though

cheers

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OK I've read this post and come to the conclusion that I am ignorant as to what makes a good black & white photo. I'm seriously asking you B&W buffs for some pointers as to what makes a good B&W image.

 

Most of my early teens were spent in my Dad's darkroom, developing and printing B&W, it was never my favorite medium but it was cheap and free. Later I developed a liking for slide and colour print and for the past 25 years that is where I've been.

 

This amongst other topics has spiked my interest again regarding B&W, but I'm at a loss to understand what is considered to be technically correct with B&W. I see some images with deep blacks and highlights with very little midtones, where as others I see good spread of tones. then of course there are the gray images as I call them lots of gray tones but neither black blacks or white whites.

 

I have no problem understanding grain, I can see it working or not in an image, that's the easy part.

 

I know it's like asking how long is a piece of string and every image is different as to what works or does not. But if someone has the time to give me a concise insight into the world of black & white I could use it to go out and try develop my eye in this field.

 

I know there is a world of opinions out there and I don't want to start a war, I am just genuinely interested as to what constitutes a good black & white image.

 

Thanks:confused:

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Choice objective(technical) or subjective............. very different answers ....like what is a good photograph...............abdicating from the thread!!

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what makes a good B&W image

 

I'm hoping this doesn't re-ignite any kind of war or controversy - but just as a counterpoint to the 'sharper onscreen pixels == better' attitude that is sometimes equated with artistic quality, and also to open the discussion to the impossibility of defining "what makes a good image", i'll throw in an image from one of my absolute favorite artists (rather controversial in herself).

This is taken (without permission) from the Edwynn Houk Gallery website, and i include it here only as a means to open discussion to the broad span of what constitutes b&w photography, and as one example of why digital photography should be considered as a different medium, and not a competing one.

More images from this photographer can be seen here:

 

http://www.houkgallery.com/mann-deepsouth/mann_1.html

 

This is an example image (a collodion print, if i remember correctly):

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Choice objective(technical) or subjective............. very different answers ....like what is a good photograph...............abdicating from the thread!!

 

Imants, so much to say.....so little to add......unwillingness to share?......objective would be good.....subjective would be interesting.....I'd settle for either.....alas neither.

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OK I've read this post and come to the conclusion that I am ignorant as to what makes a good black & white photo. I'm seriously asking you B&W buffs for some pointers as to what makes a good B&W image.

 

A good composition. Subject is important, everything even. As for the high/low contrast that's a personal thing that can also be influenced by the subject. Some scenes are low contrast, some suit high contrast. Sometimes the photograhper has his own 'view' he/she wants to impose. I temd not to like the overly grey photographs. Usually they seem to be the result of someone not wanting to see any shadow/highlight detail disappear.

 

There's an Australian photographer - Parkes? I can't remember his name or be bothered googling :-) - who produces high contrast images in harsh Australian lighting and they work very well. I saw an exhibition of his in Sydney a couple of years ago and was blown away.

 

The technical side can be overstated at times. Look closely at some of HCB's photographs to see how a technically poor image can also be a great image.

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My experience has been that looking at good work is the best way to learn. Look at the Magnum classics (their website is great), look at things like the Ilford site Welcome to ILFORD PHOTO. Lessons from excellence seems a pretty good way of enhancing the way we see and the way we make images.. We're all on that path I think...

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