AlanG Posted June 11, 2015 Share #61 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm talking rather of the next M instead of M-E, hence I'm in the wrong thread you may think, but it is closest to my concern. Martin Yes that is kind of confusing. I don't see the Q as a foreshadow of a new M-E type of camera. I see it as a sign that Leica will make FF mirrorless AF cameras before long. The M camera will probably remain pretty much as is. I can't see why they'd make a separate M model with a built in EVF when it would make more sense to make a FF mirrorless AF camera that can use M lenses via an adapter. How well it works with M lenses is up to them. If they feel that would help it sell over the A7RII for instance, then I guess they'll make it work as well with M lenses (image quality) as an M model does. There is a lot more income potential for Leica to make a new FF AF system with a potentially wide range of lenses than just trying to sell the much more limited possibilities for M lenses. Yes I know some people buy 10 different 50mm lenses and 15 different 35mm M lenses. Edited June 11, 2015 by AlanG 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 11, 2015 Posted June 11, 2015 Hi AlanG, Take a look here Is the new Q the future M-E. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted June 11, 2015 Share #62 Posted June 11, 2015 [...] I can't see why they'd make a separate M model with a built in EVF when it would make more sense to make a FF mirrorless AF camera that can use M lenses via an adapter. [...] Because they would have to create an all new system for it and the lenses of the latter could not be used on M cameras i suspect but i may be wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 11, 2015 Share #63 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Because they would have to create an all new system for it and the lenses of the latter could not be used on M cameras i suspect but i may be wrong. That's the point. To make AF lenses and focal lengths that are not possible on the M. Of course a clip on or built in EVF on the M allows zooms, TS, and long lenses to be possible but at some point you need to start fresh with the future in mind.... AF, electronic coupling, etc. So if Leica wants to make those kind of lenses why limit them by trying to make them work on an M? It would be stupid to make a wider range of manual focus lenses. (They already made that mistake with 35mm SLRs.) I have no doubt that Leica will make a FF AF mirrorless system since they already have done the required engineering for it in the Q and T cameras. Edited June 11, 2015 by AlanG 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted June 11, 2015 Share #64 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) I'm talking rather of the next M instead of M-E, hence I'm in the wrong thread you may think, but it is closest to my concern. I'm very seriously thinking of switching to Sony/Zeiss, just because I need to have one camera where I can see what I get before I press the bottom und especially to get the focus right. I've tested the EVF against the RF. With tele-photo lenses, already starting at the fast 1,4/50mm, I prefer EVF. This maybe my single personal problem, but I believe others have made the same experience. And now Stefan Daniel mentioned that there is no way of a M like the Q. Under these circumstances, waiting seems a waist of time to me. Martin Do you have the link with Stefan Daniel ? They will maybe not call it M but they will do a Q-like with interchangeable lenses because optical RF has no real future , and because the Q seems already so Mature I am like you I wonder if I must not sell all my Leica gear for Sony A7 + Zeiss Batis with AF Edited June 11, 2015 by erick 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted June 11, 2015 Share #65 Posted June 11, 2015 Why shouldn't Leica make an interchangeable lens version of this camera with a range of AF lenses? They seem to have all of the technology in place. Why go to all the trouble to design this and not expand on the design? The M can't do it all and another system will keep some Leica M users from buying from Leica's competitors to fullfill what the M can't do for them. And they'll get some new users too. If you look at Leica's evolution of their APS cameras, they went from fixed prime to fixed zoom to interchangeable lenses. Maybe they'll skip the fixed zoom this time. It would be dumb to use an M mount on this as that would be too limiting. M lenses could work via an adapter just as with other mirrorless cameras but the primary goal should be to design and sell a new line of lenses. The M camera exists for M lenses. Indeed. Why not make a new range of AF lenses on an M-sized, M-styled full frame digital camera, built to same quality standards as the M, with the same intoxicating look and feel? Though not truly a rangefinder, it would have a similar essential appeal of high image quality in a small speedy camera with outstanding design and build quality. It wouldn't take anything away from the M. It would add a new line of products to sell, and potentially new users too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 11, 2015 Share #66 Posted June 11, 2015 Why not make a new range of AF lenses on an M-sized, M-styled full frame digital camera, built to same quality standards as the M, with the same intoxicating look and feel? Because having two systems with similar capabilities and appealing largely the same customer base may be a bad idea. There may be other avenues for Leica to pursue that don’t encroach on M territory. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted June 11, 2015 Share #67 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) They could make a Q with dedicated AF lenses that accepts also M lenses, it will be a second system .... and nobody will buy a M anymore :-) Edited June 11, 2015 by erick Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 11, 2015 Share #68 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Because having two systems with similar capabilities and appealing largely the same customer base may be a bad idea. There may be other avenues for Leica to pursue that don’t encroach on M territory. Similar capabilities? Encroach on terrritory? Not very forward thinking of you is it? Yes it is better for them to let those M users keep buying Sony A7 cameras and lenses. I remember when you said that Sony would not make a FF E mount camera because the opening was too small. Edited June 11, 2015 by AlanG 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted June 11, 2015 Share #69 Posted June 11, 2015 Do you have the link with Stefan Daniel ? They will maybe not call it M but they will do a Q-like with interchangeable lenses because optical RF has no real future , and because the Q seems already so Mature I am like you I wonder if I must not sell all my Leica gear for Sony A7 + Zeiss Batis with AF You should sell it all and buy Sony. You have no business with an M body. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 11, 2015 Share #70 Posted June 11, 2015 Similar capabilities? Encroach on terrritory? Not very forward thinking of you is it? Leica may think forward, only ‘forward’ may be a different direction than some people think. Yes it is better for them to let those M users keep buying Sony A7 cameras and lenses. Yep, I think so. I have said repeatedly that Leica shouldn’t be concerned overmuch if some photographers are buying M lenses to use on an A7. As everyone knows a rangefinder is not for everyone; it is a niche product. If Sony helps Leica to sell M lenses even to those who despise rangefinders, then more power to them. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted June 11, 2015 Share #71 Posted June 11, 2015 Indeed. Why not make a new range of AF lenses on an M-sized, M-styled full frame digital camera, built to same quality standards as the M, with the same intoxicating look and feel? Or, IMHO, make it the size and feel of an M6. How much more svelte and tactile than the great brick M. Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted June 11, 2015 Share #72 Posted June 11, 2015 As everyone knows a rangefinder is not for everyone; it is a niche product. If Sony helps Leica to sell M lenses even to those who despise rangefinders, then more power to them. it will not work very long if you can get the same quality with Zeiss + AF RF is for a niche each day smaller 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timde Posted June 11, 2015 Share #73 Posted June 11, 2015 it will not work very long if you can get the same quality with Zeiss + AF RF is for a niche each day smaller or Zeiss with MF ... from what I read around here, lots of M users give up on the Rangefinder and get an A7 for their M-Lenses, and now Zeiss starts to offer lots of interesting things for A7 too, how long can Leica ignore that trend? An ILC Q is almost certain. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted June 11, 2015 Share #74 Posted June 11, 2015 or Zeiss with MF ... from what I read around here, lots of M users give up on the Rangefinder and get an A7 for their M-Lenses, and now Zeiss starts to offer lots of interesting things for A7 too, how long can Leica ignore that trend? An ILC Q is almost certain. yes Zeiss with MF or AF Sony will certainly fo now a A7s II and why not A7m (mono) and Zeiss will maybe make a body how long can Leica ignore that trend They are already working on that I guess 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 11, 2015 Share #75 Posted June 11, 2015 Leica may think forward, only ‘forward’ may be a different direction than some people think. Yep, I think so. I have said repeatedly that Leica shouldn’t be concerned overmuch if some photographers are buying M lenses to use on an A7. As everyone knows a rangefinder is not for everyone; it is a niche product. If Sony helps Leica to sell M lenses even to those who despise rangefinders, then more power to them. I don't think many people who buy an A7 body then go out and buy Leica M lenses for it. Consider that Leica is losing sales of bodies to Sony at stage one. Then at stage two, once they get the Sony body, decide they need some AF lenses for it, some zooms, some longer glass, etc. All stuff they can't get from Leica. Then at stage three, they decide not to buy the latest M because it really doesn't offer enough over their old M and they'd rather put the money into more Sony, Zeiss, and other AF lenses for the Sony or the newest Sony body with 5 axis IS, silent shutter, 42 MP, etc, etc. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted June 11, 2015 Share #76 Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Because having two systems with similar capabilities and appealing largely the same customer base may be a bad idea. There may be other avenues for Leica to pursue that don’t encroach on M territory. There are customers who will only buy the M because of its optical rangefinder; they will continue with the M and will never buy a Q or Q derivative. And there are customers who will buy both M and Q, just because they can or because they find both useful or as a gift for someone who is not expert at manual focus. And there are potential customers who don't get along with the rangefinder concept but would consider an M-sized rangefinder-styled camera that is just as good in design, image quality and handling if it has autofocus and a few key lenses. These are not necessarily "largely same customer base". Some of these are different customers. Remember the "aging eyes customer" who has lots of money but whose eyesight is not quite good enough for manual focus. Even within the M territory, many customers don't only buy just one Leica camera, or just one format. They buy two or three or more. Some have both the M and the S. Some have both the X (or T) and the M. Some have a bunch of M's and gladly buy a bunch of lenses. So it seems to me there is room to sell a Q system alongside an M system. It's good for Leica to sell M lenses to Sony buyers who can't afford an M body or don't want an M body. So why isn't it good for Leica to sell a new line of autofocus Q lenses to Q buyers, especially those who might be enticed to buy an interchangeable lens Q instead of something like the A7II or A7RII? It seems like a classic case of having to "cannibalize yourself" before someone else does. And the Q fits in line with that philosophy. Why even build a Q, even this current fixed-lens Q, if it risks some potential M customers buying the Q instead of the M? The Q is going to be cheaper and easier to use, while offering the same or nearly same IQ for many purposes. Clearly Leica is willing to take some risk in that direction. Or, IMHO, make it the size and feel of an M6. How much more svelte and tactile than the great brick M. Tim Exactly! Have you noticed how thin the Q looks? Beautiful. I haven't checked the measurements, but it appears to fulfill the goal of "thinner body" which has eluded the M8, M9 and M240. Edited June 11, 2015 by zlatkob Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxo Posted June 11, 2015 Share #77 Posted June 11, 2015 Do you have the link with Stefan Daniel ? They will maybe not call it M but they will do a Q-like with interchangeable lenses because optical RF has no real future , and because the Q seems already so Mature I am like you I wonder if I must not sell all my Leica gear for Sony A7 + Zeiss Batis with AF Andreas noted, that according to Stefan Daniel Leica will stick to the RF for the M-line, see below: I had the same idea that the Q might be a test, if M photographers would go with a EVF. Stefan Daniel today explained that this is not going to happen: The optical rangefinder and the resulting experience for the M-photographer will remain the keystone of the M-system. Andreas 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted June 11, 2015 Share #78 Posted June 11, 2015 thanks Saxo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted June 11, 2015 Share #79 Posted June 11, 2015 Exactly! Have you noticed how thin the Q looks? Beautiful. I haven't checked the measurements, but it appears to fulfill the goal of "thinner body" which has eluded the M8, M9 and M240. I didn't bring a ruler, but I held it side by side to my M9 and it was about 3-4 mm thinner and about 5 less wide. Also it felt quite lightweight, the whole Q package about as much as the M9, perhaps with the 28/2.8 attached. With my 35/1.4 attached, the M9 felt way heavier. So just from the body size and feel the Q is for me the better digital "M". Peter 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxo Posted June 11, 2015 Share #80 Posted June 11, 2015 .... Yep, I think so. I have said repeatedly that Leica shouldn’t be concerned overmuch if some photographers are buying M lenses to use on an A7. As everyone knows a rangefinder is not for everyone; it is a niche product. If Sony helps Leica to sell M lenses even to those who despise rangefinders, then more power to them. There is a simple rule: the best lenses, at least in digital photography, are newly designed, original lenses. I admit, there are a few exceptions, but if you experience that all the in-camera digital corrections of lens failures work perfect für original lenses but not for adapted ones, you will certainly prefer original lenses. This is just more convenient. Martin Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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