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Another take on the T vs. M


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I have a friend whose an architect who'd like me to shoot some of his buildings both inside and out. My widest lens is currently the 18mm (28mm equivalent) side of the original kit lens. I just don't think that is wide enough for what he wants done. So I was considering the 11-23.

 

So my dream system going back before the T existed was: M 24 summilux or 28 summilux (if they release it) or summicron, 50 summilux, 90 summicron plus macro adapter. I felt like that would cover 95%+ of what I would ever want to do with photography. 

 

I got the T rather than the M first. I learned to use it like the M with MF and bypassing most of its automation and in that mode it is 85% of the M for me.

 

I like backpacking. Small and light is important to me. The charging off of USB really is nice because it is so easy to find USB battery packs vs 12v ones.

I like biking and the strap grips me enough that I can take it out for biking and get a few shots there.

I like running and carrying the T is light enough while the M really tires out my wrist.

Just going to a friends house or on a weekend trip the T is great until the sun goes down and even then the summicron does OK.

Having a really wide lens like the 11-23 possibly could be nice for travel architecture. Maybe landscapes in good light, I don't know. I haven't had a lens that wide.

 

But the EVF annoys me. I'm constantly taking it off and putting it back on. You really can't put the T in a bag with it on.

I'm really not a fan of zoom lenses. 

The slow wakeup is a pain and almost makes it useless for street shooting. (Really, I could fix this if I had the source code for the firmware damn it.)

More sensor dust than I have ever had on any mirrorless camera. 

There is no macro and because of the active lenses you can't just do the extension tube trick

Quite a lot of backpacking is in forested areas and the T struggles with the light there. If it isn't the dynamic range, it is the shadows.

 

But the M is amazing.

It has so much more dynamic range

The 24mp vs 16mp is great

The integrated viewfinder makes it so much easier to carry.

backpacking with just a 24, the 50, and maybe a 90 is such a nice tight system. The 24 lux for landscapes and astrophotography. I've got to make one of those glowing tent shots damn it. The 50 and the macro for everything else. Those beautiful tiny jewels of rangefinder lenses.

The wide angle lenses can be a challenge for the rangefinder.

 

So should I continue to expand my T system with the 11-23 so I can shoot for my friend and then sort of have the T as the active camera for backpacking, running and biking. Or should I get the 24mm or an ultra wide for the M. The 24 would be barely capable of the architecture but it is a lens I would use. Something even wider, would be a special purpose lens I feel just to help out a friend. Likewise I don't know what I'd do with the 11-23 except maybe travel architecture. However I have never had a really wide lens so I don't know what I would do with it. It certainly doesn't feel like a walk out the door with it in my bag kind of lens.

Edited by bencoyote
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Obviously not made for professional use.  i.e. soccer mom with too much money camera 

 

It does have a nice set up menu with pretty icons.  Think pros appreciate that?

 

Pontiac made the Aztec,  Cadillac the Cimmeron,  Chevrolet made the Vega,  Buick now pushing some tiny weeny thing that call a SUV but it looks as if it already went to end of life crusher.  

 

Your money, your choice.  I would buy a tripod and fixture that allows proper rotation so close items render properly when you make the panorama.

 

You will also need to know how to light building interiors.  Bounce light, far rooms brighter than the one you are in, balance interior and exterior light.   Lots to learn for a pro job,  not just a camera and lens.

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T+M makes a fine complementary pair and useful back-up body and versatility to do all the things the M can't without a struggle.

The 11-23 lens is really excellent ....... really fine image quality and a delight to use.

Macro is easy with a Marumi screw on macro lens .... image quality is super.

 

As for M VERSUS T ....... that's a whole different discussion ...... all round the M is a better camera ..... and capable of better images in those areas where it excels...... but there again some of my best photos have been taken with the XV and T ....... 

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Your money, your choice.  I would buy a tripod and fixture that allows proper rotation so close items render properly when you make the panorama.

 

You will also need to know how to light building interiors.  Bounce light, far rooms brighter than the one you are in, balance interior and exterior light.   Lots to learn for a pro job,  not just a camera and lens.

Got a good tripod.

 

The great thing is that I am not a professional and since I'm not going to get paid for it,  my friend is going to get what he pays for. ;-) I'm not in any way trying to turn pro or build a profile as an architectural photographer. It is just fun to try to do new things and the process of trying to do new things is educational for me. However, since I'm not going to be paid for it -- the budget for getting new equipment is $0. So the conflict for me trying to balance my desires with the needs of my friend.

 

And in the muddle in the back of my mind, I'm also trying to decide which camera to take backpacking this summer:

 

T with 23mm, 18-56mm. I can't imagine a use for the 11-23mm while hiking -- or maybe I just don't know.

+ charges off of USB

+ lighter and smaller 996g with EVF and both lenses.

+ GPS

+ Macro lens converter can be added/removed without taking off the lens

- not water sealed

- much worse battery life

- sensor dust a problem

 

M with 50mm Lux and possibly 24mm or 28mm 

+ much better quality images

+ much better battery life if you don't use LV

+ water resistant body (not quite sure how this helps though given that the lenses aren't)

+ minimalist macro (not sure how the macro adaptor would work with a 50mm, 24 or 28mm vs 90mm)

- 12v charging needed

- heavier body 1020g + weight of 24mm or 28mm

 

 

Thanks for some of the tips for architectural photography above. 

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Bit of a quandary BC.

Bottom line is you have two systems that sort of play together and can complement each other.

 

First and most pressing issue seems to be the friends request, and will need wider than anything you have currently. Why not either rent what is required, or if that isn't possible or acceptable, then buy a cheaper lens that will suit the job, and then either keep it or sell it? Something like the Voigtlander 12mm or 15mm. Either would work with either camera too.

 

Buying the 11-23 is a good way to find out if you'll like it, but I'd wait for that, even you yourself said you didn't know if you'd use it later (hiking). I figure you would, heck I sure would, but that is not the point.

 

One thing I do agree with you on. The VisoFlex on the T is a right royal pain. You either have to remove it every time, or leave it on and use a huge bag. I have the same issue with the X-Vario and EVF2, so it is something that is starting to really annoy me.

 

Gary

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A few thoughts.

 

I don't see the point in buying a T and it's lenses and then using it fully manual/manual focus. It really defeats the purpose of the camera IMHO. 

 

If you buy a M & 24 you'll need a shoe mounted finder or the EVF (or use live view) as the frame lines only go as wide as 28mm.

 

Your '28' on the T might be wide enough for your purposes. Have you tried it yet? The only problem I can imagine is that I know the T applies quite a lot of digital correction for barrel distortion to the lens so I'm not sure if 28 is really 28 (be interesting to see a comparison shot with a T and kit lens at '28' and an M and 28 shot).

 

However the correction may be your very good friend here for architectural photography. 

 

You could take 2 or 3 shots and stitch them together if needed. 

 

As suggested you could buy a less expensive wide lens or rent one, if you're not sure you'll use the T lens that much.

 

Personally I'd try to 'make do' with what you have, if possible. 

Edited by earleygallery
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Voigtlander 12mm would be 18mm equivalent on the T - and much cheaper than the 11-23mm - and just seen one listed secondhand in UK.

 

And the Voigtlander 15mm would be equivalent to 22.5mm. 

 

With the 1.5 crop on the T the edge of a Voigtlander lens would not be used - so on the T the apparent edge resolution would probably be better than its true edge resolution on full frame.  

 

dunk

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A few thoughts.

 

I don't see the point in buying a T and it's lenses and then using it fully manual/manual focus. It really defeats the purpose of the camera IMHO. 

 

If you buy a M & 24 you'll need a shoe mounted finder or the EVF (or use live view) as the frame lines only go as wide as 28mm.

 

Your '28' on the T might be wide enough for your purposes. Have you tried it yet? The only problem I can imagine is that I know the T applies quite a lot of digital correction for barrel distortion to the lens so I'm not sure if 28 is really 28 (be interesting to see a comparison shot with a T and kit lens at '28' and an M and 28 shot).

 

However the correction may be your very good friend here for architectural photography. 

 

You could take 2 or 3 shots and stitch them together if needed. 

 

As suggested you could buy a less expensive wide lens or rent one, if you're not sure you'll use the T lens that much.

 

Personally I'd try to 'make do' with what you have, if possible. 

It is not that I never use AF, I use it quite a lot. However, the trick with the T to get it to be quick is to:

a) keep it awake - this saves 3s between the time you see a photo and when you can activate the shutter but it burns battery because the camera is always in live view mode

B) zone focus - this saves 1s/shot and with the wider DOF for an effective focal length you can use a narrower aperture and still get acceptably sharp shots.

c) manual exposure - this saves some time but only a little I'm guessing about 250ms so it is less important.

 

Those things together allows me to nail the shot when it is a timing thing. Many times the next shot is quite a lot like the shot that I just setup but from a slightly different angle or get a different expression or just captures a different fragment of time. So setting up the camera and making a bunch of frames until I find the one that I want is much quicker if I do this.

 

Regarding the 24mm lens vs the 28mm - yes you don't have 100% viewfinder coverage but there is only a little outside of the frame about 4 degrees. I was figuring it is easy to crop in but impossible to crop out and I can either use LV or trial and error it. My original purchasing plan was to get a 28mm summicron as the wide lens to go with my 50mm lux.

but I have tried using the 28mm equiv for architecture before. After dinner one night with a 14-42 on a m43 (a "best camera is the one you have with you" situation) a while back and I found that I was always backed up against the wall. I went home and did some homework and found that most interior architecture uses the 16-35mm lens. Which is what pushed me toward the 11-23 on the T.

 

a) I think that you are right - stick with my original plan and buy a 24mm Summilux or a 28mm Summicron for the M someday. That is one thing and separate.

B) Either buy a cheaper ultra wide angle or rent a wider lens for when I shoot with my friend. Likely choices are the 11-23mm for the T or the 12-15mm Voigtlander. And if he asks for me to do this a lot, then I'll twist his arm and make him buy me a WATE. ;-)

c) Taking the M or the T backpacking is still up for grabs but until I either get a 24 or 28 for the M, it will likely be the T.

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Coda:

I took the M on an extended hike over the weekend. With the one M lens that I have, a 50 Lux, there were a ton of things that I either couldn't get or found it very challenging to get. In particular the 50 Lux really isn't the right lens for flowers. They just take up too little of the frame at the min focal distance. I'll probably get the Macro-Adapter-M and try again. Then save up for more M lenses.

 

Even without a macro lens I can do a halfway decent job with flowers and the T's 18-56 zoomed into 56. The 18 is pretty good for landscapes and I can probably do most everything else somewhere between 23-35. So for this season at least, until I get more M lenses, the T will be my backpacking camera. Maybe I'll bring the 23mm Summicron for some night or evening shots. That's optional.

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Well, the limiting factor with the Leica M rangefinder is the rangefinder which has a minimum focusing distance of 0.7m. This is the reason the macro solution for M requires some extra hardware. For earlier Leicas this included goggles. The current version for M (240) does apparently not ship with the goggles but requires live view. It's basically an extension tube and you can get (much) cheaper third party versions for less than 100.

 

The Zeiss lenses will focus down to 0,5m and this was actually supported by the Zeiss ZM cameras - their rangefinder allowed focusing to 0,5m. 

 

Anything closer is a technical problem with a rangefinder because of parallax. The only choice is live view or TTL.

 

 

In summar: if you do macro, you will need live view or TTL. For Leica this means an M (240), a T or (with limitations due to lens and close focus ability) an X

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