Thinking of taking the plunge...

[Auchtermuchty]

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Hi all,

 

For many years I've known that, sooner or later, I'll have to buy an M series camera. At the moment my heart is set on a Monochrom or an M9 (I'm not interested in big buffers, video, or the thumbwheel control on the newer models), but they're out of my price range, or, at least, I wouldn't like to put myself in that kind of debt without being 100% sure it'll be the last camera I'll buy for a very, very long time. So... I'm looking for a way to stick my toe in the water, and see if I can really get along with the rangefinder process. I grew up with manual and mechanical SLRs and have been longing to find a system which recreates the solid, simple, second-nature process of metering, setting, focusing and shooting, so I think I'll be ok, but I confess I've learned to love Canon's autofocus in situations where my 4yr old is running around.

 

What would you say would be the best way to experiment:

 

1) Used M8 and cheap lens, with a view to trading up to the kit I really want later?

 

2) Used M8 and the single lens I will keep for the rest of my life?

 

3) Used M film body and cheap lens, just to get a feel for rangefinders?

 

I hope you don't mind - I have another couple of fundamental questions:

 

- Will any Leica lens work on the modern digital bodies? I've seen some lenses referred to as '6-bit' and they appear to have contacts in the mount - what do these contacts do?

 

- Do all the Digital Ms have built-in metering?

 

Thanks very much for any advice, in advance...

 

Al

[Lenshacker]

 

>1) Used M8 and cheap lens, with a view to trading up to the kit I really want later?

 

> 2) Used M8 and the single lens I will keep for the rest of my life?

 

To me, a "cheap lens" is under $100 and would limit you to a Jupiter-8 50/2 or Jupiter-12 35/2.8. I've also "hacked" some SLR lenses in Leica mount for my M8 that were under $100.

The Voigtlander 35/1.7 Ultron and 50/1.5 Nokton used in Leica Thread Mount with an adapter run in the under $400each range. These are very good lenses, will work well after you go full-frame. I use mine on the M9 and M Monochrom.

 

 

> 3) Used M film body and cheap lens, just to get a feel for rangefinders?

 

I would suggest you go for the M8, unless you really enjoy shooting with film. The M8 has just about bottomed out price wise, $1500 or so. You can buy one, use it, and sell it for about the same when trading up. Or do what I did- and keep it as a second camera. Then became a third. Then I found it did Infrared uniquely different from any other digital camera that I've used. 

 

> I hope you don't mind - I have another couple of fundamental questions:

 

> - Will any Leica lens work on the modern digital bodies? I've seen some lenses referred to as '6-bit' and they appear to have contacts in the mount - what do these contacts do?

Any M-Mount and Leica Thread Mount lens will work, the latter need an inexpensive Thread Mount to M-Mount adapter. I use lenses going back to 1934. The 6-bit coding is important for very wide lenses, shorter than 28mm or so. I've had my M8 for over 5 years now, and I have never used a 6-bit coded lens on it. 

 

> - Do all the Digital Ms have built-in metering?

Yes, when I got my M8 and used it for the first time- could not figure out what those Red Lights were at the bottom of the frame. I went to the M8 from the M3. Then it struck me that it might have a meter built in, which also explained what the "A"uto setting was. "A meter in a Digital Camera, what will they think of next" moment for me. I checked it against the Weston Master that I always used, and had with me. The camera's meter is accurate.

 

I went route of buying the M8 to see if I would like a Digital RF, bought the M9 a year later and the M Monochrom when it came out. I am still exploring the capability of the M8. The only Leica RF with 1/8000th top shutter speed.

 

You will need to get some IR cut filters. The 50/1.5 Nokton uses 52mm filters, and you can get Tiffen Hot Mirror filters at reasonable prices on Ebay and other used places.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Lenshacker

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[Auchtermuchty]

Thank you! That's very helpful and has provided some confidence. I think I'll go for the M8 body just now, and see what lens opportunities present themselves.

 

Cheers,

 

Al

[david strachan]

Thank you! That's very helpful and has provided some confidence. I think I'll go for the M8 body just now, and see what lens opportunities present themselves.

 

Cheers,

 

Al

Very wise Al.  And good advice from Lenshacker...one of our resident experts.

You can start with many lenses well under $500. Off Ebay, they are cheap from all over the world.

 

These are some of mine...

 

Canon 35mm f2 ltm  US $350

Canon 50mm f1.4 ltm....$450

Summicron 50mm f2 ltm collapsible ...perfect nick...$500

Leica 90mm f4 with removable head....$200

Elmar C 90mm f4 M mount ...$350

Voigtlander 15mm f4 M mount $350

Summaron 35mm f3.5 ltm...$400

etc

 

Have a lot of fun.

 

cheers Dave S

Edited April 26, 2015 by david strachan

[earleygallery]

Buy a cheap rangefinder camera to try the concept first - many people can't get along with them, there's another thread here and I think the poster had his M9 for a couple of days before deciding it wasn't for him! 

 

You can buy one of the old Russian cameras like a Zorki, and if it comes with a decent lens you'll be able to use it on the Leica if you buy one, or a newer compact such as the Olympus XA. I know the handling is different but it's a cheap way of finding out if you like the concept of using a rangefinder. 

[dpitt]

Go for the M8! It is a wonderful camera and will provide the digital M experience you want to test. Bodies are around 1000 - 1300 Euro now.

If you buy an other rangefinder, and you do not like it, you will never know if it a Leica digital M would have been better suited to you, and you might end up rejecting the idea for nohing.

Same goes to an extend for using a film M if it is your first film camera.

 

The only caveat's are:

1. It is digital, so do not expect to keep it for the rest of your life. At some point the electronics will fail and will be unrepairable.
That may well be over ten years from now, but if you want a camera to pass on to you grand children, buy a user M2 from the sixties. It will still be working in 50 years, given some TLC every 20 years or so.

 

2. It has a crop factor of 1.33, so if you like wide lenses you will need 28 mm or lower, which are out of your budget now. A 50 mm will turn into 66mm. That makes it a bit too long, still useable but at some point you will want wider than that. My favorite on the M8 is the Summicron 40C, almost a perfect 50 mm normal lens on the M8. It will need adjusting the bajonet to bring up 35mm frames in stead of the 50 mm frames it will bring up when mounted on the M8.

 

3. Try to buy a lens with fitting UV/IR cut filter. Most Leica M lenses have E39 mm filter thread. So limit yourself to that size for your first lens and buy a second hand UV/IR filter of good quality like B+W or Leica.

If you only shoot in B&W you do not need the filter.

 

4. Don't be too cheap on the lens! Try to buy a good vintage Leica one. Provision a budget of about  $100 to get it a CLA, so you will be sure it performs within specs. Best candidates for first lens are Summicron 40C F2.0, Summicron 50 collapsible F2.0 or Elmarit 50 mm F2.8 collapsible. They will all set you back around $500 including a CLA (CLA + mods needed on the 40C). The Elmarit will be a but cheaper, but will limit indoor use without flash.

These three are also a perfect example af a typical M lens... Light, compact,  easy to focus and extremely sharp when in good condition.

My first combo was Summicron 40C on a M2 body.

Leave experiments with non Leica brands for your second, third, fourth... lens.

 

Thats my 2 cents...

[Auchtermuchty]

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Blimey! Dirk! Perfect timing - thank you very much for that message.

 

As it happens, I've just bought a used M8 on Ebay with just over 800 actuations, for about 1200 Euros. It looks to be in perfect condition - I hope the low shutter-count doesn't indicate a problem, but the seller has offered return & refund which inspires confidence. I'm pacing around like an expectant father, waiting for it to arrive! I decided to buy digital rather than film because, as much as I love film and the analogue process, I'd prefer to deal with one hurdle at a time - learning to get to grips with the rangefinder system while still having the convenience of instant results of my experiments, seems like a good approach to me. And I'm sure I'll get my money back on the M8 if I eventually decide it's not for me.

 

For the last couple of days I've been thinking about lenses, and I'd like to buy well I think, and get something that I'll keep even if I decide to change bodies in the future. I'd also like to synchronise the purchase with the arrival of the camera, so if the camera turns out to be a lemon I can send the lens back too. I'd been looking at Zeiss Planar & Sonnar 50mm lenses, but I didn't know that the M8 was a crop-sensor body! I'd blindly assumed that all Leica digital Ms were full-frame.  So that changes the picture a bit, if you'll pardon the pun! Back to the drawing board...

[Lenshacker]

an M8 at that price with so few actuations- you will be able to resell for about what you paid. Think of it as a low-cost rental if you plan on upgrading later. 

 

The crop factor is not as big of a difference as it sounds. I used the M3 and Leica screw mount cameras for many years before buying the M8.

 

I still drop my M8 in the bag with a 50 on it next to the M Monochrom for an outing. 

 

It has some advantages, not the least is 1/8000th top shutter speed.

 

for lenses: The Planar is reputed to be sharp and well-behaved. The C-Sonnar has more character, but you need to master "Focus Shift".

 

http://www.the.me/lesson-in-history-the-magic-of-the-value-for-money-zeiss-c-sonnar-50mm-f1-5/

 

http://www.the.me/unique-blend-of-compactness-super-speed-and-perfect-imperfections-1930s-sonnar-lenses-on-the-leica-m9-and-m-monochrom/

Edited April 28, 2015 by Lenshacker

[Henry Fool]

Totally agree about the Summicron-c 40mm (or the Minolta M-Rokkor 40mm version) perfect lens on the M8, amazing quality, perfect size...

[boliston]

The M8 seems ideal as long as you know it's limitations.

It's 1.33x crop so a 28mm lens will act like a 37mm - this is what I have and I'm quite liking the result.

It can be slow to write files in 16bit raw mode - about 10 seconds but most people will probably just use standard DNG which is much faster - about 3 seconds.

It needs IR filter to get accurate colour - used mine for about 3 months without a filter and even without the filter the colours were not too bad - the filter was about £100 so not cheap.

Batteries are quite pricey - the original battery was OK but I needed a spare new battery to keep shooting all day - about £90.

The M8 body costs about £1000 so is good value compared with M9 which is about £2000, even more new!

Buying second hand leica gear means you can often resell later and get most of your money back.

[Auchtermuchty]

Thank you everyone. I've ordered a new Zeiss Sonnar 50mm which should arrive tomorrow at the same time as the M8. I think I'll be happy with the slightly extended focal length while experimenting, and if I do decide to save for a Monochrom after all, that lens will do just fine until I can afford the Summilux Asph. I'm also accustomed to the focusing foibles of the Canon 50L so with a bit of luck and determination I should be able to work through the focus shift issues that I've read so much about.

 

Does it really take 3 seconds to write a RAW file?? I take it that's time taken in the buffer though, and I can take a second shot while it's still processing the first?

[Lenshacker]

You can take several shots in DNG mode and "Raw" mode, using Arvid's M8RAW2DNG software.

 

The C-Sonnar is unique, capable of some amazing shots. I use it on the M8 often.

[jaapv]

You can fill up the buffer to twelve shots without delay whilst the camera is writing. After the buffer is full you can take a shot as soon as the camera clears a file, i.e. once every two seconds.

[Auchtermuchty]

Well! Blimey. The camera and lens both arrived at my work today, at lunchtime. The lens (50/1.5 Sonnar) is new so there's not much to say about that I guess. The camera arrived without any padding at all around its Leica box - just some brown paper and stamps! One corner of the box was a bit bashed as if it had been dropped/thrown by a delivery guy, but I was too excited to let that put me off - I put one of the batteries on charge, and then set about looking for an SD card - I could only find one, and it was only 32MB! Bummer. Undaunted, and over-eager, I grabbed the battery as soon as it had enough juice to turn the camera on, fitted the lens, and raced out to the college next door to try a couple of frames. And what d'you know... after one frame my card was full, and then my battery was empty. Double bummer. Got back to the office and plugged in the USB cable, and after a couple of minutes of processing, this is my first ever Leica photograph!

 

 

My first impressions are: I found it difficult to adapt to the very small frame indicating the field of view of the 50mm lens - it occupies less than a quarter of the viewfinder! I know that's an advantage for people who are accustomed to it, but coming from Canon and Fuji viewfinders where the image actually overlaps the finder, it'll take me a while to get the hang of it. It's also a bit of a leap to no longer have a moveable AF point, but getting back to the rock solid, simple focus & compose is one of the things I'm hoping to achieve. In Lightroom I got say the file didn't look that impressive, but it took sharpening very well - better than my Canon & Fuji files I think. 

 

While I like the focal length and I have high hopes for the bokeh of the 50 Sonnar, the combination of the slightly long view AND the tiny viewfinder frame is making me wonder if Dirk was right and a 35mm f2 Biogon wouldn't be a better choice for me after all. But that prompts some anxiety about 'coding' the lens - it seems there are a few hoops to jump through before my 'pure and simple photography' nirvana can be reached.

 

I have tomorrow to decide if I'll keep everything, or if I should return the lens and sell the camera on. So I'm planning to take the M8 back out again (with full batteries and a 2GB card!), along with my 5D3 and my X100, to take similar shots with each, and use those images to decide. 

 

Many thanks for all your advice - it's been very helpful!

 

Regards,

Al

[peterjcb]

Hi all,

 

For many years I've known that, sooner or later, I'll have to buy an M series camera. At the moment my heart is set on a Monochrom or an M9 (I'm not interested in big buffers, video, or the thumbwheel control on the newer models), but they're out of my price range, or, at least, I wouldn't like to put myself in that kind of debt without being 100% sure it'll be the last camera I'll buy for a very, very long time. So... I'm looking for a way to stick my toe in the water, and see if I can really get along with the rangefinder process. I grew up with manual and mechanical SLRs and have been longing to find a system which recreates the solid, simple, second-nature process of metering, setting, focusing and shooting, so I think I'll be ok, but I confess I've learned to love Canon's autofocus in situations where my 4yr old is running around.

 

What would you say would be the best way to experiment:

 

1) Used M8 and cheap lens, with a view to trading up to the kit I really want later?

 

2) Used M8 and the single lens I will keep for the rest of my life?

 

3) Used M film body and cheap lens, just to get a feel for rangefinders?

 

I hope you don't mind - I have another couple of fundamental questions:

 

- Will any Leica lens work on the modern digital bodies? I've seen some lenses referred to as '6-bit' and they appear to have contacts in the mount - what do these contacts do?

 

- Do all the Digital Ms have built-in metering?

 

Thanks very much for any advice, in advance...

 

Al

don't waste your money on a cheap lens...the heart of using a Leica camera,, IMO, is Leica glass. Leica glass isn't cheap but you can find some good used deals.

If you're getting an M8 with 1.33 crop factor look into a 28mm Elmarit. It will give you the equivalent of a 35mm lens.

I've been shooting for over 40 years and when I finally decided to buy a used M8 I realized how special Leica glass was. There is truly something distinct about the images it produces.

 

PS. plus if it isn't all the you expect, you can usually sell your used Leica equipment and recover most of what you paid for it.

Edited April 30, 2015 by peterjcb

[dpitt]

Al,

 

Congratulations with the M8 and 50 mm

It is a good start even with the crop factor.

 

Apart from the 40C Summicron, I often use a 50mm Summicron on the M8. You will find that the tiny frame actually helps when using sunglasses or normal glasses to view the complete frame at once. I also like seeing a lot outside the frame.

 

That is why I actually like to use the 35mm frames (with the 40C) on the M8 more than the 28 mm frames. Although 35 mm equivalent FOV of the 28mm is more convenient sometimes.

 

Because I like to use some DOF, the 40mm works better for me than a 35mm in that respect. Even on the M9, I keep using the 40C regularly.

Having a M8 and a M9 body, I work with the crop factor... I put a 50 or 90mm on the M8 for 'tele' and a 35 or 40 or 50 on the M9, and off we go. 

 

And indeed, as mentioned, the 1/8000 comes in handy compared with the 1/4000 on the M9. The M8 is still a great camera and at half the price of a used M9 it provides a lot of value.

[Auchtermuchty]

Hmmm. I gotta say, after a couple of days using the Leica, the Canon and the Fuji... I'm thinking about selling the Leica and returning the Zeiss lens.

 

I *really* like:

 

- the completely rugged construction

- the completely simple controls

- the LCD, surprisingly! I've seen many complaints about it, but I think it works really well.

- the 3D depth and soft, grainy bokeh produced by the 50 Sonnar.

 

I'm sort-of ambivalent about:

 

- the ergonomics of focusing & aperture control with such a small lens

- the lack of aperture display in the finder

- having to code lenses and buy expensive filters

 

I don't like, and don't think I'll get used to:

 

- the inaccurate framing lines, and the amount of space around them in the finder. I'm too used to WYSIWYG.

- the noisy shutter and the reset motor

- the difficulty of focusing in certain situations (e.g. no high-contrast detail in the area of interest, or too much detail, like foliage etc)

 

I'd still swap my granny for a Monochrom any day of the week, but the M8 hasn't really lit my fire the way I thought it would, and it doesn't make me feel like getting rid of the Canon and Fuji. The Canon 50L produces images that compare with the Sonnar, and the Fuji (with its silent leaf shutter) is more discreet than the Leica. Both of them make great quality images in a much greater range of situations than the Leica.

 

I am a heretic, and I must be BURNED!

[david strachan]

Al, give yourself time.  Using a Leica takes an apprenticeship.

Relax and enjoy your Sonnar and M8.

Buy it, and properly try it...you've only had it for 3 days....

cheers Dave S

[goatsby]

I agree with Dave, give it some time before selling or sending back. It took me a few weeks of continuous shooting when I first used a rangefinder before it became comfortable. Now, I have a hard time shooting with anything else!

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[rivi1969]

First, I have to say this is a great forum, loads of very useful comments and great advice.

 

I am new to the world of Leica M but not to rangefinders (used to own a couple of Epson´s R-D1s back when they were released) and also I am the current and proud owner of a Leica Digilux 2 and a Leica X1, and like you I knew I had to try the M experience someday in my life and the moment arrived a couple of weeks ago in the form of a beautiful mint M8.

 

Each camera offers something unique and for me they all complements each other. I don´t pretend the M8 to substitute my Canon 5D, or the X1 the Digilux 2. I understand their own capabilities, embrace their shortcomings and use them based on my mood and what I want to achieve. All are capable of amazing pictures so in my case is all about the experience of taking the pictures rather than the final results which it all depends on me. (I sold my Fuji X100 and Fuji X-E1 to fund my M8 and Zeiss 35mm f2... I am 200% happy with my decision) 

 

Here one of my first test shots with the Zeiss (No coded)

 

Regards, R

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Edited May 2, 2015 by rivi1969