Jump to content
bla

M8 hideous unusable high ISO performance thread

Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

This one is 4-stops down, so ISO2500 equivalent. Used Auto-Curves and then pulled up the curve a little bit to bring out the face. It was very dark, hard to nail the focus.

 

iso2500eqv

 

The lens used might be the only Rangefinder coupled Minolta 50/1.4. Hacked lens on the M8 using Hacked shooting modes.

 

Minolta1 Edited by Lenshacker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So my new project is to write up how I got from "A" to "B" on some of these examples. I'll make it into a PDF when done. I am putting images into it, for illustration. This will be for a WINdoze machine and requires use of the command line. I will include screen captures.

 

I have the intro done:

 

"The Leica M8 is now more than 8 years old, is Leica’s 1st generation M-Mount digital camera. Some design compromises were made, including the lack of uncompressed DNG as was available in the digital back for the Leica R-Mount SLR. The latter used CF cards, much faster than the SD cards used in the M8. SD cards are small, much simpler interface. The write speeds of the SD card was stated to be too slow for uncompressed DNG, and compressed DNG-8 was implemented in firmware. High-ISO performance suffered as a result of this decision.

“Put the computer into diagnostics mode”, a favorite trick of Mr. Spock. The button dance is born, most likely some Leica firmware engineer was a fan of the Rocky Horror Picture Show and implemented the “TimeWarp” dance. Push the Right arrow key 4 times, Left arrow key 3 times, Right arrow key once more, and then press “Set”. Scroll down to “Compression”, press Set to enter the sub-menu, , and you will see a new option: “ Fine Jpeg+Raw”. Scroll down to select it. One word of caution: if you plan on using this mode for extended periods, disable the “Auto-Off” mode of the camera. Once you turn the camera off, or if the camera “hibernates” to save power- the setting will revert to “Fine Jpeg” only. You will need to do the Button Dance again.

 

You will have to put up with my sense of humor...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have Ektar 100 in my Nikon FE right now and Kodak TX 400 in my Hasselblad. I am having no trouble shooting anything and if I really need a photo indoors I plop my Leica flash on the FE and I'm good to go. If I want to shoot my Manchester Terrier sprinting full speed in low light I grab the Nikon D3 and set it to 10fps.

 

...different tools for the job

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a Nikon Df, M9, and M Monochrom. They all work well in low-light. Not everyone owns them, and this is the M8 forum.

 

Arvid's M8RAW2DNG puts the M8 on par with the M9. There are M8 owners that might want to take advantage of the low-light capabilities that are inherent in the camera that have been masked out by the firmware. That is what this thread is about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As a fairly new owner of a m8.2, [...]

 

I'd be interested to know if anyone has any thoughts on boosting exposure in post, versus raising the ISO in-camera. Are there any Signal to Noise Ratio benefits from shooting in ISO 640 and then boosting by 2EV in post, versus shooting at ISO 160 and pushing 4 stops in post?

 

Just go to the first post in this thread for an answer.

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

"The Leica M8 is now more than 8 years old, is Leica’s 1st generation M-Mount digital camera. Some design compromises were made, including the lack of uncompressed DNG as was available in the digital back for the Leica R-Mount SLR. The latter used CF cards, much faster than the SD cards used in the M8.

 

The DMR uses SD cards

 

john

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The DMR uses SD cards

 

john

 

I did not know that- thankyou. I've corrected it in the draft.

 

It just makes me wonder why-on-Earth Leica did not include Uncompressed DNG with the M8!

 

This is an ISO2500 Equivalent shot.

 

Night_Fight_Color_ISO2500eqv Edited by Lenshacker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Following my own instructions, all now with screen shots...

 

Original-

 

Closeup_original

 

LR to CS2 auto-levels, then some slight adjustment in curves.

 

closeup_boosted

 

Shutter set to 1/90th, was very dark. This is at least 5 stops under.

 

I sent the draft to Arvid for review.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just go to the first post in this thread for an answer.

.

 

Just re-read the first post. How does that answer my question if I prefer not to use M8RAW2DNG?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Following my own instructions, all now with screen shots...

 

LR to CS2 auto-levels, then some slight adjustment in curves.

 

Shutter set to 1/90th, was very dark. This is at least 5 stops under.

 

I sent the draft to Arvid for review.

 

Very impressive indeed. Really looking forward to reading the steps you took to achieve this result!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will be revising the instructions based on Arvid's input and tips on how to improve the results shown so far.

 

On the ISO setting, this is from the draft I am doing:

 

" Leave the camera set to Base ISO of 160 and use the EV compensation setting to shoot at higher ISO. For ISO320 use EV-1; ISO640 use EV-2; and ISO1250 use EV-3. After that, you need to use manual exposure. Setting the compensation to EV-3 on the M8 controls both Auto-exposure mode and manual metering mode. In manual, the center Dot indicates exposure with the compensation factored in. I use EV-3, match the dot, then select a higher shutter speed for ISO2500, ISO5000, and 10000. The latter, to see what the camera could do.

Setting the ISO higher than 160 has an unfortunate side-effect on the M8: it shifts the image values by 1-bit for each doubling of the ISO. The M9 and M Monochrom do not do this. Looking at the values stored in the RAW file in Hexadecimal- it makes sense. Too bad it cannot be disabled. The DNG-8 compression scheme loses more values at the left end of the histogram, and shifting the data to the right is an attempt to optimize the actual values stored. For our High-ISO processing algorithm, we want all of the bits."

Edited by Lenshacker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does negative exposure compensation work in Manual exposure mode, with a manually selected ISO? I've never tried that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Does negative exposure compensation work in Manual exposure mode, with a manually selected ISO? I've never tried that!

 

That's what I was doing yesterday- had to convince myself that it was working. I got the reading in Auto mode, then manually selected the indicated shutter speed and "got the dot". Moved the shutter speed up from that spot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's what I was doing yesterday- had to convince myself that it was working. I got the reading in Auto mode, then manually selected the indicated shutter speed and "got the dot". Moved the shutter speed up from that spot.

I've just re-read the entire thread and think I get it finally! Can't wait to get home this evening and give it a try. I'll post my results. Bear with me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very dark yet the hat casts a well-defined shadow and his pupils are contracted ?

Following my own instructions, all now with screen shots...

 

Original-

 

Closeup_original

 

LR to CS2 auto-levels, then some slight adjustment in curves.

 

closeup_boosted

 

Shutter set to 1/90th, was very dark. This is at least 5 stops under.

 

I sent the draft to Arvid for review.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Very dark yet the hat casts a well-defined shadow and his pupils are contracted ?

 

at the time they made the figure the studio lights were much brighter, :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These guys are great, every time I come back with a new lens they strike up the same pose...

 

These pictures were taken at the Marine Museum in Quantico, Virginia. A Hollywood special-effects team was brought in to make life-masks of some of the veterans that volunteered at the Museum. The mannequins were made to look like the men in their younger days. Every so often you look at a display to look up and see the man that the mannequin is based on.

 

JUST FOR COMPARISON!

 

The M Monochrom at ISO5000 with a 1936 Sonnar, wide-open at F1.5 and 1/30th:

 

L1003955

 

And the M8 shot shown before, shot on manual exposure as -3ev was not good enough, F1.4 and 1/60th:

 

autocurves_ISO5000eqv

 

I had a yellow filter on the Sonnar, which would account for the longer exposure.

 

I've posted pictures from this display on RFF, someone asked me were the re-enactment was and how cold was it. This is the "Chosin Reservoir" scene of the Korean War, and there is a tribute to David Douglas Duncan in this section of the Museum. Last visit, I took the M Monochrom with the Nikkor 5cm F1.5 and Nikkor 13.5cm F4. My lenses are from the same batch as his, each within a few SN of his. There were maybe 400 of the F1.5 lenses made in Leica mount and even less of the 13.5cm F4's.

Edited by Lenshacker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been experimenting with the options for correction and black-level. The prior version of this image did not have the non-uniformity correction applied. A tribute to the sensor in the M8!

 

Following my own, revised directions.

 

sd_b00_option

 

More experimenting to be done, the uniformity can be correct better than that shown here. Compare the shadow area of the Hat near the ear. You can see the the seam of the halves of the sensor in the first version of the image almost disappears in the second version.

 

If you "click" on the image you get to my Flickr stream, the two versions of the image are adjacent. Click the Right then Left arrows to compare the two images. You will see the uniformity correction improve agreement between the two halves of the sensor.

 

If anyone wants an early version of the write-up on this procedure, PM your Email to me and I will send a PDF.

Edited by Lenshacker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By onasj
      I obtained a customer-release—not pre-release/beta—M10-R and compared it side-by-side with the M10 Monochrom (hereafter referred to as the M10-M) on a test scene at high ISO values.  The firmware version for both was the latest firmware currently available to the public: 10.20.27.20 for the M10-R (upgraded from the initial released 10.20.23.49 firmware that was pre-installed in the new camera), and 2.12.8.0 for the M10-M. 
      Methodology: all shots were taken on a tripod with a 2-second delay to minimize vibration.  The same Leica 50 APO lens was used for all tests.  The aperture was set to f/5.6 for all tests, at which the resolving power of the 50 APO is about as high as possible among commercially available 35-mm format lenses.  The ISO value and shutter speeds were as follows:
      ISO 6400, 1/60 s
      ISO 12500, 1/125 s
      ISO 25000, 1/250 s
      ISO 50000, 1/500 s
      ISO 100000 (M10-M only), 1/1000 s
      To the best of my ability, the M10-R and the M10-M were treated equally.  The test shots were taken in one sitting, with the same tripod position 2.2 m from the target, and under the same lighting.  The images were focused by rangefinder and confirmed by live view for each camera.  The subject distance (2.2 m) was farther from the test scene than my earlier M10-R tests (1.3 m) because I anticipated that the M10-M might have no trouble resolving all the details of the scene from 1.3 m, even at absurdly high ISOs.
      To keep the test as pure as possible, all the test shots were taken as DNG files, then transferred and opened in Adobe Photoshop 2020 with Camera Raw 12.3 (which has native M10-R support) with no corrections or adjustments to the default image settings, other than clicking “B&W” to convert the M10-R images to monochrome.  Therefore, this test does not really answer the question of how the performance between the cameras compares if one were to bring the full power of modern post-processing, noise removal, AI-driven scaling and sharpening, etc. to bear on the images.  It also does not exploit the important ability of adjusting the levels of different colors when converting color files to monochrome files—arguably the largest advantage of using the M10-R to generate monochrome photos instead of the M10-M.  Instead, the purpose of this test is to compare the acuity and noise level of the two cameras at ISO 6400 to ISO 50000.
      Overall, both cameras take remarkably good monochrome photos, even at ISO levels such as 12500 that would previously be considered out-of-reach.  Here are 100% crops from a small portion of the center region of both cameras (M10-R on the left, M10-M on the right).  Click on the image below to view it at 100% to avoid scaling artifacts.  I would have no hesitation using ISO 12500 monochrome images from either camera for virtually any application.  But of course there are substantial performance differences.

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden! Finding #1: The M10-M captures higher acuity levels than the M10-R across the ISO range tested (6400 to 50000).
      As expected, given the lack of a Bayer color filter array (CFA) and no need to de-mosaic the red-, green-, or blue-filtered pixels, the M10-M offers significantly higher acuity than the M10-R.  To my eye, the advantage persists even if you give the M10-R an advantage of one or two stops: compare the sharpness of the fine features of the scene as captured by the M10-M at ISO 25000 vs. the M10-R at ISO 6400, or the M10-R at ISO 25000 to the M10-M at ISO 100000—a remarkable testament to the M10-M’s ability to capture a scene down to the smallest details, even zooming in to 100%.  Notice also that at the same ISO level, aperture, and shutter speed (chosen by each camera’s auto-shutter speed setting to be the same at all ISO levels!), the M10-M images are only modestly brighter than the M10-R; I was surprised that the Bayer CFA didn’t dim the M10-R images more strongly.  Perhaps the M10-R firmware partially compensates for the loss of light due to the Bayer CFA.
      Finding #2: The M10-M offers about a 1- to 2-stop advantage in high-ISO noise levels over the M10-R.
      Compare the M10-M at ISO 50000 to the M10-R at ISO 12500, or the M10-M at ISO 25000 to the M10-R at ISO 6400. The M10-M continues to blow me away with its high-ISO performance.  Indeed, Bill Claff’s measurements at https://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm rank the M10-M’s high ISO performance as fourth among all cameras tested to date, behind the Phase One IQ4, the Phase One IQ3, and the Fuji GFX-100—three current or recent top-of-the-line medium format cameras.
      Overall, Leica has created in the M10-M and the M10-R two current-generation sister cameras with outstanding overall performance.  If acuity or high-ISO performance is more important than color for your particular application, than the M10-M outperforms the M10-R and is among the very best cameras to my knowledge, even joining some medium-format monsters.  And if color is needed, either in the final image or to enable creative conversion to black and white images that allows easy sky darkening, face lightening, etc. during post-processing, the M10-R remains an option worthy of its current flagship status among Leica M cameras.
    • By Ian clegg
      First time post, be gentle. 
      I want to bring my raw files from Monochrom into silver efex. SEP. But it will only accept RGB. Will this lead to loss of quality ? When I scan my black and white negs I do so in greyscale and that’s  perfect for printing to black and white paper at Metro. 
      It seems to defeat the object of the Monochrom if I have to convert to RGB ?
      Am I missing a trick ? What say you ?
    • By Johnclare369
      Hi.
      I can't find exactly this problem reported here, so apologies if it's here somewhere. 
      During the lockdown I've been trying different kinds of home-based photography. Yesterday I was playing around with high-speed shots, dropping ice and strawberries into coloured water, that kind of thing.  I've just opened the images in LR and in PS and found there is a small line across the images when shooting at ISO higher than 640.
      Is it some kind of banding?  I don't know the ISO level where it starts to appear, I would have to do more tests to determine the tipping point. However, it's not there at 640 and is there at 1600 and above. See three attached images. Same lens and body, ISOs 640, 3200 and 4000. Shutter speed 1/4000 on all three. Apertures from f4 to f6.8. 
      Of course I am assuming it is to do with the ISO, not the f-stop.
      I was shooting on high speed shutter, so maybe something to do with the heat generated or recycling time?
      Lens is APO-Summicron-M f2. 90mm.
      Camera body Leica M10. No flash.  Remote cable release for high-speed shutter.
      Any thoughts appreciated.
       
       
       

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden!
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden!
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden!
    • By Yeedah
      Hi!
      I recently purchased a used Leica Q manufactured early 2018. 
      When I try shooting in night, both "low iso + long exposure", and "high iso + short exposure" captured in DNG file shows annoying banding, and even some unwanted color points, like the images shown below.
      Is this a native camera issue? Or this camera sensor is defected : (
       
       

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden!
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden!
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue., Read more about our Privacy Policy