Problem film advance M-A

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

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Friends,

 

did just receive my first film Leica, but when trying to learn to manage it I have run into a problem.

 

Loading film goes fine (I hope) and when I advance the film with distinct move of the lever to its end the red marks on the rewind lever moves in the "right" direction and the counter moves and the release button (shutter release) works fine.

 

However in 1 of 15-20 frames nothing hapens when I push the release button (shutter release), and if I then slowly moves the advance lever ca 30 degrees you can hear a snap like the shutter and the lever as reached an endpoint. If I now push the button still nothing happens, but I have lost a frame according to the counter. Now I can use the lever again and everything works fine, until the same things happens again some frames later.

 

So, what's going on? I have not been able to achieve this thing without a film, and even more wird is that if I open the camera when it occurs it looks like the film sits nicely in the holders.

 

Greatful for advice before I contact Leica...

 

/magnus

 

PS I bought the M-A because I was fed up with my sensor problems with the MM, and what can go wrong without any electronics :-)

Edited January 12, 2015 by Magnus_L_Andersson

[timde]

shutter release

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[pico]

Perhaps you are being too gentle with the advance lever and not moving it to the end of the stroke. It is also possible that you accidentally moved the Rewind lever.

?

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

shutter release

 

release button = shutter release (I have clarifed it in the post)

 

/thanks

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

Perhaps you are being too gentle with the advance lever and not moving it to the end of the stroke. It is also possible that you accidentally moved the Rewind lever.

?

 

That was also my belief that I did not move it to the end, but it does not seem so. Same thing if I try sevarl small advances. If you by "rewind lever" mean either the small button on the front or the lever on the left hand side these are not touched.

 

/magnus

Edited January 12, 2015 by Magnus_L_Andersson

[michaelwj]

A new M-A, I'd take it back to where you bought it and get them to look at it and run you through the operation differences to the MM. Enjoy and good luck.

Cheers,

Michael

[Magnus_L_Andersson]

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A new M-A, I'd take it back to where you bought it and get them to look at it and run you through the operation differences to the MM. Enjoy and good luck.

Cheers,

Michael

 

Even though this is my first film Leica I am old enough to used quite a number of film cameras before the digital era, but have never had this type of problem before.

 

/Magnus

[250swb]

Are you sure you aren't accidentally pushing the Rewind lever when using the camera, in the same way for instance that people new to Leica's put there finger over the rangefinder window and the focus patch disappears? Pushing the lever may be easy if you are gripping the camera with gloves on, or it could be something that happens when perhaps moving from horizontal format to vertical format and holding the camera differently. Just an idea.

 

Steve

[wattsy]

It doesn't sound right, especially as you seem to have checked that the film is seated correctly. The only thing I can suggest (and it sounds like you are already doing this) is to sacrifice a film and use it to test the mechanism by loading the film and go through the roll, firing the shutter and winding, until you can repeat the problem. At this point you can take the baseplate off and have a look to make sure that the film has been wound on correctly to that point. To be honest, it sounds like something is amiss with your new camera - possibly the clutch mechanism binding as the film is wound to a certain point? If the problem is repeatable I would definitely take it back to the dealer sooner rather than later and have the camera replaced rather than sent back to Wetzlar for repair.

[wattsy]

Are you sure you aren't accidentally pushing the Rewind lever when using the camera,

 

Anything is possible of course (I recently, whilst in the darkness, tried to rewind my film in the wrong direction and, even though it didn't feel right, didn't realise my mistake until I couldn't turn the knob any further:D) but accidentally engaging the rewind clutch doesn't usually affect the ability to trip the shutter or wind the film.

[aesop]

...here's my advice, Magnus_L_Andersson, seeing as you appear new to film M Leicas.

 

Take the loaded camera back to the seller of the camera (if this is not immediately convenient, then try your nearest possible Leica dealer) and ask for it to be unloaded - when this has been done, ensure there are no bits or pieces of broken off film left in the camera, then re-load the camera with the new roll of film *under the supervision* of someone knowledgeable at the seller's or the camera shop. The idea is that any procedural irregularities during the loading of the film will be spotted by this person.

 

Under no circumstances should force be applied to get the film to advance properly or to release the shutter - if you feel any resistance, it is because something is wrong.

 

Hope this helps. Good luck.

[aesop]

...oh, one more thing - only if/when the above fails would I would consider sending the camera back to Leica. My assumption here is that we are discussing a brand new Leica M-A.

[250swb]

but accidentally engaging the rewind clutch doesn't usually affect the ability to trip the shutter or wind the film.

 

The only empty camera I had to test the idea was an M2, so perhaps the M-A has a different mechanism. But with the M2 if you push the rewind lever to the 'rewind position' and then partially wind on a frame the shutter will lock and the film advance lever will lock depending on its position. The only way to unlock it is to release the rewind lever and wind on a full frame, so losing a frame in the process. I'd say the OP is perhaps not winding the film on fully at each stroke of the advance lever combined with some other action that makes the event intermittent.

 

Steve

Edited January 13, 2015 by 250swb

[wattsy]

The only empty camera I had to test the idea was an M2, so perhaps the M-A has a different mechanism. But with the M2 if you push the rewind lever to the 'rewind position' and then partially wind on a frame the shutter will lock and the film advance lever will lock depending on its position. The only way to unlock it is to release the rewind lever and wind on a full frame, so losing a frame in the process. I'd say the OP is perhaps not winding the film on fully at each stroke of the advance lever combined with some other action that makes the event intermittent.

 

I tested it earlier with an empty MP but admittedly not with a partial wind-on.

 

The reason why I think the OP might have a problem is that he states that "I have not been able to achieve this thing without a film". I don't fully follow his description but it sounds like it might be related to a problem I've heard of before with other film M bodies where I think the clutch mechanism tightens as the film is progressively wound on until the film cannot be wound further (before the expected final frame is reached). The resolution to this problem, if I remember correctly, involves some minor disassembly and the tightening of a washer or something similar in the winding mechanism.

[pico]

Take it to a shop. In the over forty years and dozens of Leica M cameras, I have never had that problem. Something in the camera is more likely wrong than you.

.

[Stealth3kpl]

it sounds like it might be related to a problem I've heard of before with other film M bodies where I think the clutch mechanism tightens as the film is progressively wound on until the film cannot be wound further (before the expected final frame is reached). The resolution to this problem, if I remember correctly, involves some minor disassembly and the tightening of a washer or something similar in the winding mechanism.

 

This happened to my MP in Cuba, 2 days from the end of the trip (thank goodness for my Olympus Mju 2). I wasn't aware of an issue initially, but I'd go to trip the shutter and realise I hadn't wound it on quite enough. Eventually, I just couldn't wind on sufficiently to cock the shutter. I'm amazed the film didn't snap, or my thumb for that matter. Off it went to Solms, which was the plan for that body after the trip anyway.

I'm not sure this s the OP's problem. Back to the dealer with it.

 

Pete

[lincoln_m]

Magnus,

It sounds like you are only partially winding on some times. It is a ratchet mechanism so you can make several small movements or one large one. Only when you fully wind on does it fully cock the shutter. If you have pressed the shutter while you window on it will cock then immediately release. Thats the sound you hear when you see the counter has moved on. As the shutter has fired pressing it again has no effect until you wind on another frame.

 

Some say to take up the slack in the film cassette after loading, but I don't as this can lead to very tight film coming out of the cassette which makes you think you have fully cocked the shutter because of the tension. The film in the cassette may be tight and causing you these problems.

 

Also using a soft release can cause issues and I often get a blocked shutter release just when I don't want it. Loosening the soft release helps and I can get the shutter to fire again or wind on fully.

 

Do as others have suggested and sacrifice a film for loading advancing firing, advancing, firing until used then rewind slowly waiting for the film to ping off the film advance so you can unload and reload to try again.

 

Your camera just needs a bit of running in I think.

 

My MP is 11 years old and I've probably only run about 50 films through it and it is still new. My used M2 50 years old is smoother than my MP. My used M7 has been used more than my MP and doesn't have trouble.

 

Run it in with an old dead film before sending it back.

 

Regards, Lincoln

Good Luck

[pico]

If you have pressed the shutter while you window on it will cock then immediately release. Thats the sound you hear when you see the counter has moved on.

 

That's right! Wow, I must have old kinetic memory because I haven't messed up like that again in decades.

.

[ThePioneer]

Not sure what is causing your problem but I would certainly have Leica fix it. My own M-A is as smooth and quiet as any M I have ever owned, smoother than quieter than a lot of them.

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[Magnus_L_Andersson]

The following message was sent to Leica Germany:

 

I have just bought a new Leica M-A, but it behaves weird. Having loaded a film and made sure it is advanced as intended (including tightening the film with the rewind lever) in one of ten shots nothing happens when pushing the shutter button (note, it is not stuck and possible to push). If I then just slightly moves the advance lever (without touching the button) it sounds like the shutter is released and according to the counter an image been taken. My first belief was that this resulted from an incomplete lever advance by me, but talking to friends with other film Leicas it sounds like that this should lead to inability to push the button until further advance has been made, and not resulting in a counter move and "loss" of image and no action when pushing shutter button second time. Hence what is intended to happen in the case of the sequence of possibly slightly incomplete film advance followed by pushing shutter release button?

 

The Leica reply was "I have check your problem with our Leica M-A. The inside knob from the rewind release lever with the 2 red points turn when I move the advance lever. The outside knob don’t turn. The counter move. That is ok. When the inside knob not turns then is the film not in the right position and you must check the loading again.". Hence, did not really address the problem.

 

I have put together a brief video (

) which I will send to Leica, and if anyone of you have any ideas regarding the problem let me know.

 

/magnus