How do the T files . . .

[bcorton]

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. . . compare to those of the M (240) or ME?

 

I'm thinking of selling my R9/DMR and R lenses in order to finance a T or an ME. I would like a lighter outfit for traveling and just for having a camera with me more often. I would like to be able to use my M lenses digitally. And I would like to be able to take night-scapes with stars, so I'm thinking the M (240) might be less desirable, with its 8 sec. exposure limit at higher ISOs.

 

I have an X2 and assume that the T's files will look much the same (if that is a false assumption, please set me straight). They do not have the color saturation (bit depth?) of the DMR files, nor perhaps the inherent acutance (can I use that term with digital?) but I can live with them as they are quite nice nonetheless, and even give slightly more detail than those from the DMR. For me the Ms are the unknowns. Can anyone comment on how the T DNG files compare to those of the ME or M (240) in terms of color, noise, and sharpness?

 

All help is appreciated.

Brent

Edited January 8, 2015 by bcorton

[bencoyote]

Really good question! The DMR was know for its deep color depth at the time but that was a couple of sensor generations ago. The T only has 16MP on an APS-C sized sensor so the photo buckets are pretty deep and Leica really doesn't seem to use the pixel area to push ISO a in an aggressive way. So I would guess that the color depth is fairly deep. For comparison the current crop of m43 gear has about the same resolution and a higher ISO range on a smaller sensor.

 

I have literally thousands of T shots and I borrowed an M240 for the Me and Leica M demo program for a weekend and have about 1000 shots from that. I'd be happy to toss a couple of DNG files up on my website for you to play with if you would like.

 

The T is a very comfortable camera to travel with. It is small and light and with only two native lenses to play with you are not tempted to carry a big camera bag. The silver is beautiful but the black is more unobtrusive. I always buy a second battery when I buy a camera. With the T, I find that I almost never use it. I don't do flash and tend to leave the EVF off when inside. That easily gets me through a whole day of reasonably heavy shooting.

 

The T does not have a bulb mode for star photography but you can go up to 30s of exposure. Above that you may need to do image stacking. I haven't used the T much for astro photography just some quick tests but it seemed to be better than other cameras that I've tried, the lumix gx1 and the Oly E-M1. For star trails, the 23 isn't terribly wide and the 18-56 isn't very fast. You may be better waiting another week or so to get the 11-23.

 

My biggest worry is the T not weather and dust sealed and I don't know it is me, coincidence, or the camera but I tend to get more sensor dust on the T than any other camera that I have had. Narrow lens mount flange with no o-ring?

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[bcorton]

Really good question! The DMR was know for its deep color depth at the time but that was a couple of sensor generations ago. The T only has 16MP on an APS-C sized sensor so the photo buckets are pretty deep and Leica really doesn't seem to use the pixel area to push ISO a in an aggressive way. So I would guess that the color depth is fairly deep. For comparison the current crop of m43 gear has about the same resolution and a higher ISO range on a smaller sensor.

 

I have literally thousands of T shots and I borrowed an M240 for the Me and Leica M demo program for a weekend and have about 1000 shots from that. I'd be happy to toss a couple of DNG files up on my website for you to play with if you would like.

 

The T is a very comfortable camera to travel with. It is small and light and with only two native lenses to play with you are not tempted to carry a big camera bag. The silver is beautiful but the black is more unobtrusive. I always buy a second battery when I buy a camera. With the T, I find that I almost never use it. I don't do flash and tend to leave the EVF off when inside. That easily gets me through a whole day of reasonably heavy shooting.

 

The T does not have a bulb mode for star photography but you can go up to 30s of exposure. Above that you may need to do image stacking. I haven't used the T much for astro photography just some quick tests but it seemed to be better than other cameras that I've tried, the lumix gx1 and the Oly E-M1. For star trails, the 23 isn't terribly wide and the 18-56 isn't very fast. You may be better waiting another week or so to get the 11-23.

 

My biggest worry is the T not weather and dust sealed and I don't know it is me, coincidence, or the camera but I tend to get more sensor dust on the T than any other camera that I have had. Narrow lens mount flange with no o-ring?

 

Ben (I'm assuming),

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It helps and I appreciate it. I would be glad to take you up on your offer of posting a couple of DNGs on your website (one from the T, one from the M, I'm guessing). Thank you. What is the url?

 

Yesterday, I ran a comparison between the DMR's and the X2's DNG files. I prefer the color in the DMR, but the detail in the X2—but in neither case is the difference a deal-breaker. 'Gotta love post processing.

 

I was aware that the longest shutter speed on the T was 30 seconds, as it is on the X2. And with the X2 I can get fine starscapes, but I'm limited to one lens. With the T I could mount my M lenses and have more choice, but at a crop. The M (240) only allows 8 seconds at higher ISOs (what up with that?), but with the wider aperture lenses, that might not be a deal breaker. The ME allows up to 240 seconds, but I understand that noise is more of an issue at higher ISOs. On the other hand, I do like the ideas of being able to use zooms (and longer focal lengths) on the T, and of having a small travel kit.

 

Another unknown for me is whether I'll get along with an EVF. I do prefer an optical viewfinder to the LCD screen on the back of my X2. Especially at night, the LCD doesn't cut it (it doesn't show stars well, and it destroys the photographer's night vision).

 

I wonder if other people have had your trouble with dust on the T's sensor. For some reason, it never was much of an issue for me with the DMR, and I've used the DMR a lot in the winds of Missouri's prairie, and the deserts of Southern Utah. Go figure.

 

I ramble. But please post or pm me the link for your website. And thanks again for the kind offer. Attached are a couple of X2 star photos.

 

All the best,

Brent

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Edited January 9, 2015 by bcorton

[bencoyote]

Nice shots! Sadly, I live in next to the coast where there there is a lot of water vapor in the air that often times becomes opaque to the stars. And then there is the light pollution of a very major city a couple of miles away. So I can only get shots like that if I'm on vacation and of course since I haven't practiced very much they generally suck. But hey, if you ever find yourself in need atmospheric pictures with fog, I got you covered. ;-)

 

I tossed a couple of shots -- nothing particularly good up on:

http://ssh.bencoyote.net/~ben/

 

Let me know if they don't have what you need and I'll push up a few more.

[gbealnz]

I agree, very nice shots.

 

I enjoy the frustrations of astro shooting myself, using a dedicated cooled CCD astro camera as well as my run of the mill day to day camera(s).

 

Currently I am using a Fuji with the X Trans sensor, and it is very good from a value for money point of view. The new Sony A7s would be another camera that holds interest, with the possible down-side that being full frame brings.

 

When the T became available, I looked at it, seriously, but didn't like the lack of "B" setting, so went off in another (X Vario) direction. While most don't need anything longer than the 30 seconds max, I find with my Fuji I am routinely exposing for 2-3 minutes, sometimes more, up to 10 minutes. And at ISO1600 usually, but last night I was using ISO3200 as well.

 

All depends what you want. Having seen the two from the X2 though, I am going to at least try my old X1, just for fun. Plus my astro shooting differs slightly from what I see here, where the usual is night landscapes.

Gary

[bencoyote]

I've asked Leica for a B mode and wouldn't be surprised if it grew one in some future firmware. On the other hand, given the way charge leaks it may be better quality to trip the shutter and reset the sensor then stack in post. I don't know. It would be nice to live an area where the night time air is clear and there isn't light pollution.

[bcorton]

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Bencoyote,

Thanks for the link to your files. I'm working with the iPod now and can't access them, but I'll get on a computer tomorrow and take a look. Much appreciated.

 

I too live in a rather muggy area--at least in the summer. The two night shots I posted were from travels in Utah's and Colorado's high deserts. One doesn't see skies like that where I live. However winter here often brings lower humidity, and sometimes the winter skies are nice--when not cloudy. Fall too--when not cloudy.

 

You mention stacking. I'll have to give that a go one of these days (although I doubt it will work with nighttime landscapes, because of the movement of the earth. Or maybe there is an easy post processing work around). For the guided shots it might worthwhile.

 

Cheers,

Brent

[bcorton]

Gary,

Thanks for the compliment. I was introduced to astrophotography a long time ago by a remarkable junior high school teacher, but haven't had the equipment to do much of it until recently. I do not have an imaging camera for use with my telescopes, but hat is fine for now. I do enjoy stars with landscape elements present.

You mention no bulb setting on the T, but the X Vario hasn't one either, has it? I really wish Leica would equip the M with one. But then I'd REALLY have to buy one.

 

Have you any of your astrophotos on display? If so, I'd love to see them.

 

Best,

Brent

Edited January 11, 2015 by bcorton

[gbealnz]

Brent,

No, the X Vario doesn't have a B or T setting as far as I know, and to be fair, with a fixed zoom lens it would be silly for me to even think about trying it.

 

My comment of trying the T was many-fold. It would allow use alongside an M6 and M lenses, plus have the travel side covered with the zoom(s). Plus, if it worked as hoped it would allow me to dispense with the Fuji, not that it's a hardship, I am just keen to trim the equipment list as much as possible.

 

While this is possibly not the place to suggest it, the Fuji is a great value for money system, for astro use anyway. I am amazed at the lack of noise with some of the shots I have taken with it.

 

In as much as images taken, I have just started using a few of the Leica lenses, with my Fuji, so will post some of these as I get a few. I do have many astro shots, believe me, but few of late with Leica lenses, so posting them here is not appropriate. The initial trial I did with my old R series 50 Summicron (Version 1) is promising, very.

Gary

[AlanJW]

Gary,

Thanks for the compliment. I was introduced to astrophotography a long time ago by a remarkable junior high school teacher, but haven't had the equipment to do much of it until recently. I do not have an imaging camera for use with my telescopes, but hat is fine for now. I do enjoy stars with landscape elements present.

You mention no bulb setting on the T, but the X Vario hasn't one either, has it? I really wish Leica would equip the M with one. But then I'd REALLY have to buy one.

 

Have you any of your astrophotos on display? If so, I'd love to see them.

 

Best,

Brent

 

M has a bulb setting. But, if my memory is right It is limited to 240 seconds and there is no way to turn off long exposure noise reduction. That makes it tough for astro.

[bcorton]

M has a bulb setting. But, if my memory is right It is limited to 240 seconds and there is no way to turn off long exposure noise reduction. That makes it tough for astro.

 

 

Yes. I've read in other threads on this forum that the M9 permits up to 240 seconds on a bulb setting (actually a "T" setting, I think). But the M (240) only allows 8 seconds at higher ISO values (I forget beyond which point exactly), and I think only 60 seconds max at lower ISOs. 'Tis a pity, I think.

[AlanJW]

Yes. I've read in other threads on this forum that the M9 permits up to 240 seconds on a bulb setting (actually a "T" setting, I think). But the M (240) only allows 8 seconds at higher ISO values (I forget beyond which point exactly), and I think only 60 seconds max at lower ISOs. 'Tis a pity, I think.

 

Yes, I stand corrected. The inability to turn off the long exposure noise reduction further cripples astro work.

[dfarkas]

Yes, I stand corrected. The inability to turn off the long exposure noise reduction further cripples astro work.

 

It is worth noting that the X Typ 113, X Vario, X2 and the T all have no dark frame subtraction noise reduction, meaning there is no delay between a 30 second exposure and the next shot. On the M, this cannot be disabled.

[bcorton]

It is worth noting that the X Typ 113, X Vario, X2 and the T all have no dark frame subtraction noise reduction, meaning there is no delay between a 30 second exposure and the next shot. On the M, this cannot be disabled.

 

 

I have the X2, and there is definitely a delay. If I take a 1 5 second exposure, there is a 15 second delay; for a 30 second exposure, a 30 second delay. I had hoped this was because of dark frame subtraction, but you say it doesn't exist on the X2. Why then the delay?

 

Brent

[bcorton]

I have the X2, and there is definitely a delay. If I take a 1 5 second exposure, there is a 15 second delay; for a 30 second exposure, a 30 second delay. I had hoped this was because of dark frame subtraction, but you say it doesn't exist on the X2. Why then the delay?

 

Brent

 

dfarkas,

 

My sincere apologies. There is no delay, only my faulty memory. I just tried some long exposures again and checked. You are 100% correct. I'd delete my earlier post if it were possible. 'Sorry for being both misinformed and opinionated. 'Bad combination.

 

Brent