A moment of therapy - M9 may never arrive

[bobbywise]

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This post is not for advice on the M9 itself, but more a therapeutic vent, and to ask advice on getting reimbursed by PayPal.

 

On Dec 6th I won a ebay auction for an M9 based in Greece, for a good price of 1929 euros. I asked the seller to send by UPS, but they replied saying they couldn't as UPS was not close. However, they sent the M9 with tracking.

 

I regularly checked the Greek postal website, and the tracking stopped at the 10th December, with a status of in transit. I contacted the seller this week, who confirmed from the Greek postal that the package is in France.

 

Upon checking the tracking reference with La Poste website, it seems the package was delivered on the 13th December. So I went to the local post office near where I live. They pulled up the details showing the package was delivered at 12:27:58 on the Saturday. Ironically, I was out at that time on that day because I actually went to the bank to do a transfer for a 35mm Summilux-M APSH FLE.

 

So I've opened a case with the La Poste customer service who will investigate, and get back to me within 5 days. I don't hold out much hope right now. I've checked with my neighbors, but having said that, the La Poste have never left a package with tracking with the neighbors -- they always leave a paper asking you to pick up the package at the local post office if you're not in. I never had the paper telling me to go pick up the package that could not be delivered.

 

The 35mm Summilux currently has use only on the Sony A7 .....

 

I've opened a PayPal case regarding this matter because apparently, if you don't receive your goods you purchased on ebay via PayPal, they will give you a reimbursement. My worry is that if the La Poste cannot accurately account for where the package has been delivered, and PayPal doesn't believe what's happened, they will not reimburse me.

 

If the package never arrives, and PayPal believe me and I'm reimbursed, there's not much chance of finding another M9 at that price.

 

If anyone else has used ebay/PayPal and had similar issues to me, how did you go about getting reimbursed by PayPal ?

Edited December 23, 2014 by bobbywise

[2wk]

If you bought through ebay you have buyer protection so don't worry. Your first red flag should have been the refusal to ship UPS. Good luck, I hope it works out for you.

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[bobbywise]

The seller seems genuine. They had sold a 50mm Summilux-M, and had good feedback for that. According to the La Poste the package has been delivered/signed for. It's really not the fault of the seller (although I wish they had made the effort to use UPS or DHL).

 

My worry is that PayPal won't believe me should the La Poste not be able to provide sufficient evidence of where/who signed for the package.

[otto.f]

La Poste seems responsible, they don't have a signature whereas they state deliverance at a circumscript time. Bienvenu chez les Ch'ti...

[mca]

Isn't the La Poste service supposed to check the ID of the person who signs the package in order to guarantee it's the same person that the package is destined to? If they cannot prove it, maybe they are accountable for it. Here in Portugal they ask for ID and check if the names match, and also they put the ID number on their system so they know who got the package.

 

Good luck though. I would tell Paypal that the package was lost in transit and therefore ask for reimbursement but I don't have experience from this. I suppose they have insurance for these kind of situations.

[bobbywise]

Yes, for me La Poste are the responsible people who are at fault. My wife phoned them to log the complaint and have them open a "case". Apparently they're looking into it and will get back to me within 5 days. They had the cheek to ask me to tell the seller to make a réclamation (complaint) at their end to the Greek postal service. It's hardly the Greek postage service's fault since they kept their end of the delivery to France in check.

 

As I mentioned in the first post, the La Poste always leave a paper if you're not in. They've never delivered to neighbors having them sign, because they know they don't have to come back (you go pick the package up from the local post office). Some courier companies actuall don't want top pass a second time, so get lazy and leave the package with a neighbour. But never the La Poste.

 

Since I had no paper in my letter box, and since the package seems to be delivered and signed for, I'm worried that someone at the La Poste has effectively forged my signature. My concern is if the La Poste try to claim I have signed (I was on my way back from the bank at that time, so I can proove that I would not have been able to sign at the declared time).

 

My worry is that PayPal may not believe me if I have to go down the buyer protection route. Because since winning the auction for the M9, I then undertook and won other auctions for M9 batteries and an M9 leather case. I can imagine ebay/PayPal may turn around and ask why I was buying additional accessories if I had not yet got the camera.

 

Fingers crossed it's just a technical hitch with the La Poste, and the package is safely sitting on a shelf. But my gut says I'll never see this M9.

[otto.f]

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It'll be in the Kangoo under the front seat I hope

[bobbywise]

Hi Luis,

 

I've received many deliveries from the La Poste. When they arrive at your home, they ask you to write your name and sign, but they never ask for ID at your home. If you are away, they leave a piece of numbered paper in your letterbox, and when you go to pick up the package from the local La Poste post office with the piece of numbered paper, they want to see your ID and you sign. But they never ask for your ID at home.

 

This is the first time I've had an issue like this. If PayPal are able to reimburse me then that's great. However, it's hardly fair to PayPal -- La Poste are the people at fault.

 

With Well Wishes,

 

Rob

[otto.f]

Unless someone hacked the Track&Trace internet site to declare it as delivered

[bobbywise]

Unless someone hacked the Track&Trace internet site to declare it as delivered

 

LOL, yeah probably my wife

[CalArts 99]

 

If anyone else has used ebay/PayPal and had similar issues to me, how did you go about getting reimbursed by PayPal ?

 

A few years ago I sold an item through eBay and with PayPal as payment. I sent the item via the postal service with tracking and insurance. The item was tracked and a delivery signature recorded. The buyer claimed not to have received it despite that the postal service showed it as delivered. PayPal had no reason to stop my payment and reimburse the buyer since it was delivered with documentation and officially recorded as delivered. I worked with the buyer to resolve it, but I had done my part and was not at fault. PayPal also claimed no liability in this case (it had been recorded as delivered.) I think their concern with these sorts of rare situations where delivery has been documented is that the buyer could be attempting to cheat PayPal by claiming no delivery when in fact they did get the item.

 

Anyway, it turned out the buyer's housemate had taken delivery and kept the item. They ended up working it out with the police. With the postal service a signature and printed name of the receiver is required. The roommate had used the buyer's name and forged a signature (normally no ID is asked for unless the postal employee suspects something is not right; most postal employees have the same route and know the residents but obviously not in this case.) Apparently the postal insurance I had bought for the delivery would have covered the item since it was delivered correctly but fraudulently signed. The item was finally recovered in the end.

 

In your situation it sounds like La Poste is liable and needs to prove proper delivery acceptance. It will likely turn out okay but might take some time. If the buyer insured it with the post service, then that should cover it. Good luck with it.

[-Lss-]

My worry is that PayPal may not believe me if I have to go down the buyer protection route.

Open a case with eBay/Paypal if you have not received your item. Make sure to follow their process, and you should be covered. They will generally not care about you or your problem, if you miss a deadline or otherwise deviate from their process.

[-Lss-]

If PayPal are able to reimburse me then that's great. However, it's hardly fair to PayPal -- La Poste are the people at fault.

Don't worry about Paypal. It is basically the seller or you who will lose the money/camera.

[Tony_K]

I just bought a noctilux on eBay and it turns out the transaction was fraudulent. Someone hijacked a seller's account and tried to scam people with fraudulent shipping info and fake sales (done in a very convincing way). I couldn't believe what was happening and for a week or so, not being super experienced with eBay, I was having many of the same worries you are having. The situation is even more frustrating because eBay and Paypal are apparently run by software bots with nary a human anywhere, so you just have to let the process run it's course. The good news, is I think I pretty much learned the following:

 

-- The system is very biased toward buyers - so if you didn't get the goods, you will get your money back. The seller can open a case with the police or the postal service or whomever, but from what I can tell, it won't be your problem (this makes it important for seller's to use tracking with signature confirmation and insurance).

 

-- Once the eBay/Paypal bots figure out what is happening, your money will come back pretty quickly. I received one email implying my money wouldn't come back until mid January, but I actually wound up getting it within a week of filing my claim and have since bought a nocti from a reputable seller.

 

-- They say you can only file a claim with eBay or with Paypal, but in my case, I actually managed to file claims with both (one for non shipment at eBay and another for a fraudulent payment at Paypal). You might not be able to do that, because this does not sound like fraud, but I think the eBay resolution process is better than Paypal since eBay refunded my money and paypal was still sending automated emails. The suggestion here is maybe refile your claim with eBay.

 

-- A final lesson learned for me and one that I have since implemented, is to tie my paypal account to my credit card (American Express). Had I done this before, I could have filed my claim with Amex instead of Paypal or eBay and based on past experience, I would have received my money faster and with much better customer service. If you have already done this, you might consider a claim with your credit card company.

 

Bottom line is - I feel your pain having just been through a similar experience. You should be okay, however, and you will get your money back and maybe even sooner than the automated system is telling you. It's quite nerve wracking, but hopefully it will be resolved quickly. It does illustrate how poor the customer service is from both paypal and eBay and how ready all of us are for someone to start an alternative. Good luck!

[jaapv]

Next time ask UPS to make a return shipment on your account. You can mail the shipping label to the seller who will only have to print it and pick up the phone to have it collected.

[michali]

I live in France for part of the year and receive many deliveries from La Post, including several lenses and cameras over the years. Our local village postman knows me well and if there's a delivery and I'm not home he will phone me to ask what to do with the parcel.

 

My suggestion is that you go and see the postmaster and find out which postman did the delivery on the day. Also ask them to see the copy of the delivery sheet which has the recipients' signatures. They keep a copy of this at the post office. This will tell you if there's some skulduggery going on...

 

The 5 days story is just to fob you off or on the off chance that the parcel will miraculously appear. Then they'll tell you to contact the Greek Post or to lodge an insurance claim. I assume the parcel was insured, as far as I recall La Post's maximum cover is €1, 200-.

 

Don't tell La Post that you may have recourse through Paypal as they will then wash their hands of this.....

 

Good luck!

Edited December 24, 2014 by michali

[tobey bilek]

I only buy from those who ship UPS.

 

I use the local UPS distribution center as my point to pick up the package (will call). They always ask for ID and signature.

 

There is no BS it was left on the porch.

 

Now if I buy shirts from LL Bean, those can go to my front door.

[bobbywise]

I have a minor update. It's not regarding the La Poste status, but of the sellers eBay feedback. The seller has just received negative feedback from one person calling them a scammer and claiming that they sent them an empty box for a Canon lens. So it got me thinking a bit.

 

Maybe the seller had positive feedback for the 50 mm Summilux because they had a friend bid high on it to win it and give them positive feedback (thus to give confidence to eBay users for their other listings). And maybe they then looked at my address on Google maps, and decided to send a registered letter to an address nearby me where I live, but not my address, or maybe even to a different person at an address close to where I live. That way, a tracked letter would get delivered and signed by someone, but not me. This would give the seller more breathing space for their scam.

 

I've yet to hear back from the La Poste, but my gut feeling is now telling me that possibly the seller simply sent a registered letter to someone who lives nearby me.

 

I opened a dispute with the seller on PayPal the other day (for not using UPS as I requested), and I have until 12th Jan to raise it higher with PayPal for a claim.

 

Should I give the La Poste some time to get back to me on the 'signed delivery' of this tracked package/letter before raising higher with PayPal for a claim, or immediately raise it higher with PayPal for a claim ?

[otto.f]

Sorry for you that Christmas is being spoiled by this. You can't do so much these days I'm afraid. But I would first check your theory at La Poste. Or send the seller a mail with the question what address he put on the parcel

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[CalArts 99]

 

Should I give the La Poste some time to get back to me on the 'signed delivery' of this tracked package/letter before raising higher with PayPal for a claim, or immediately raise it higher with PayPal for a claim ?

 

It's best to raise the issue higher with PayPal while at the same time making La Poste show you the exact delivery address and delivery confirmation record. This is what the buyer did in my case (see my post above.) PayPal will request the documentation anyway to try to settle whether it was delivered to you. But do keep your case escalated with them. PayPal won't penalize the seller in any way if you escalate the case (they know you're just protecting yourself.) It will all get figured out eventually with the paper trail, and you'll know soon whether the seller was scamming you or La Poste made an error. The bottom line is that you did not receive the item and you need to keep all your avenues open in the meantime.