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Does the MM sensor corrode or just the M9?


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I have an MM.  As far as I can tell, as I mentioned earlier,  it has no sensor corrosion but will have to go to N.J. for another issue.  I'll ask them to inspect the sensor as well, it has a few dust specs but other than that seems fine.  I would be dismayed if I had to give up this camera, as I am not a big fan of a  CMOS sensor on a Leica.  It seems that it's only a matter of time before I have a sensor corrosion issue.  Am I correct in this assesment? Is this the fate of all M9's and MM's?  Is an "upgrade" offered only in the event of sensor corrosion?

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Wilfredo, if like me, you are totally happy with the CCD sensor, stick with it. Leica have guaranteed to maintain/replace the sensor for life until a permanent solution can be found. Hmm. My opinion: stick with it till/if a problem arises! It may not happen. Flip side of the argument - how long a life do you expect, realistically, to get from any digital camera? Unfortunately you need to be pragmatic about it. With luck you will reach that expectation, free of real trouble. :)

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I would be dismayed if I had to give up this camera, as I am not a big fan of a  CMOS sensor on a Leica. 

 

Only your own print comparisons would be meaningful, but fwiw, here's what David Farkas said in his recent MM246 review…

 

"And, in an interesting twist in the CMOS vs. CCD debate, the newer MM246 actually has more contrast and pop out of camera, resulting in a more film-like rendering. The original Monochrom actually appears flatter. This is in direct contrast to the differences between the M9 and M240, where the opposite holds true. I’m not sure how much of this effect is due to software profiling after the fact, or processing of the DNG file in camera, but the end result is just fantastic. So little needs to be done to these files to make them sing. My import preset mainly deals with sharpening and noise reduction, with just a small tweak to the tonality. It also seems that the MM246 DNG files can also take more sharpening, more clarity and deal better with noise reduction than those coming from the M9 Mono. This shouldn’t come as a surprise, when looking at similar advantages of the M240 over the M9."

 

And that's in addition to the clear and significant ISO advantage that the new CMOS based sensor presents.

 

Oh, and no corrosion yet (that we know about).

 

But, to answer your question about inevitability of corrosion, simply nobody knows.  Chances are probably against…just like most issues we hear about with Leica, e.g., M8 LCD stains, etc.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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At the risk of being repetitive, both of my M9s purchased in Sept. 2009 & March 2010, both displayed the sensor corrosion issue earlier this year.

My MM purchased in Oct 2012 also had sensor corrosion as well as a cracked sensor.  Leica repaired and serviced all 3 cameras at no charge, very efficiently and speedily; a satisfactory outcome. Prior to undertaking the repairs, Leica offered me the upgrade option, I declined. 

 

It seems that a similar phenomenon is affecting some Canon models as well:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2886594945/canon-issues-product-advisory-for-rebel-t6i-t6s

Edited by michali
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Thank you Erl, Jeff, and Mike for responding to my inquiry.  You have reassured me that I can hold on to my MM for the foreseeable future, which is a welcomed relief.  The new Monochrom 246 sounds like a fantastic tool, but as most of you know, for B&W photography, I prefer the stamp of the MM.  My D2 also remains a camera I won’t part with, I especially love it for character portrait shots.  I am obviously a CCD sensor fan, and love the rich tonal rendering this type of sensor produces, especially when human skin is involved. 

 

My other camera is a Canon 5D Mark II, and I do manage to get satisfactory B&W photos from it, such as the one I am posting here (in the event that some out there may think I don’t believe it possible to get a decent B&W from a CMOS sensor) but the feeling I get from these photographs, is not the same as I get from the MM, or previously, the M8.  There is something I experience at the pit of my stomach, that feels right, when seeing the results from the MM, that I don’t get from my Canon 5D Mark II, or any CMOS sensor camera.

I've attached a second photograph done with the MM in low light.  I especially enjoy the skin tones, they look real.

 

On the question of the flat LCD images, I’m O.K. with an image being a bit flat on the LCD screen, since none of my images escape PP.  The truth of the matter is that I often get a “wow” reaction from people, when they see their portrait on the LCD of my MM. I also have no issues with the ISO capabilities of the MM.  Using it in low light situations has been a treat.  So yes, I will be holding on to my MM, and happy to hear that Leica will stand behind its product.  I get a sort of whirling dervish bliss using my MM.  LOL!!!

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I've posted on other threads- the Kodak DCS SLR/n and SLR/c both used the same cover glass as the M9 and Monochrom. Some have had problems, many others have not. The camera is almost 15 years old.

 

The M246 files undergo a lot of in-camera processing, what gets stored is an image with '0' stored as the level for Black and 3750 stored as the value for white. The CMOSIS sensor was originally designed with a 14-bit ADC. One would have expected a range from ~50 for Black to 16383 for white. The image stored has already been scaled and clipped within the camera, it is going to show more contrast. With the M Monochrom -and I will continue to call it that as that is the name stored in the DNG file- you would use Curves, Tones, or Levels to match.

 

The camera suits me,

 

17004178310_d29ca571ce_b.jpgMt Vernon by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

 

17190057432_c920e285bc_b.jpgMt Vernon by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

 

If this is considered "flat", then I like flat. That's what I get for reading a number of photography books in the 1970s where you tried to reproduce a color scene rendered in Black&White as the eye would perceive it.

Edited by Lenshacker
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The camera suits you, and that's the bottom line.  Thank you for posting these lovely images.  The camera suits me as well, the skin tones and texture are truly in a class of their own with the MM.  That's the bottom line for me.  I've looked at lots of M246 images posted online, and the skin tones and texture look typically CMOS to me, which often spells plastic, and less natural.  Without this central ingredient all the great advantages, become meaningless.  Again, I'm glad to be able to hold on to my MM.  BTW, there are great deals on used MM cameras on E-bay going between $4000. and $5000.  It's a good time to buy.

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 I've looked at lots of M246 images posted online, and the skin tones and texture look typically CMOS to me, which often spells plastic, and less natural.  Without this central ingredient all the great advantages, become meaningless. 

I'd probably make a lot of wrong decisions…for me…if I relied on online posts and online pics.  Based on early pics, lots of people here thought the original Monochrom was a one-trick pony, that trick being flat grey, dull files.  It wasn't until people with different tastes, different processing and printing techniques, came to a far different view.  

 

My own prints led me to keep my M8.2 rather than switch to the M9, contrary to most online views at the time.  And, later, I found that I could produce even nicer prints with my M240.  Over time, with software improvements, different papers, and other processing changes, my print results from those same images have gotten even better.  I'm sure none of those comparisons and changes could have been effectively displayed online.

 

You're 100% right, of course, that the only thing that matters is your own opinion.  And if you never actually print with the new MM and compare it to your own (and I understand why you wouldn't feel the need or desire), your opinion will inevitably never change.  And that's ok…but it doesn't mean that it's technically accurate….though it might be.  Or it might be that other factors beyond CCD/CMOS, e.g., internal camera software, etc, are playing a role…but there are lots of other long threads on that already.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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I hear what you say about the M8, I also skipped the M9.  It sounds like you've found a way to make the M240 work for you, and you've dedicated serious time and effort to this.  Personally, I haven't gone wrong paying attention to online photos, that's what sold me on the M8 originally, especially the B&W photos, and the same thing happened with the Monochrom.  I'm really happy with what it produces, and still believe it is the best B&W tool I've ever used.  This won't change anything in the world of camera manufacturing, but it is what it is for me.  For those who get a rise from the thought that the new M246 will boost them to the next level of B&W photography, well, I hope so.  Photography is a beautiful thing; glad we are keeping it alive, regardless of personal preferences.

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I do like the M240.  But I also plan to test the MM246, once the dust settles.  I've always loved b/w shooting and printing (covering over 40 years and 4 darkrooms), so any potential improvements are considered.  Plus there's something to be said for an all b/w experience….been there.  

 

Like you, I'm thrilled we have choices and have no vested interest in convincing others that mine will work for them….but I do like sharing my thoughts on what works for me in the sprint that it might help someone else in their considerations.  Hope your MM continues to give you so much pleasure.

 

Jeff

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Looks like mine did when I sent it in for cleaning and inspection.  Came back with a new sensor.  I think the halos surrounding the spots are significant.  Most of the dust spots I've seen don't have them.  In my case the spots did not show in my images at the apertures I use.  I only found them when I went looking for them.

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Corrosion or dust?

09583c9bc877e425c15923eeebe93275.jpg

e2b886e98982129e27a9c8ea9d24e624.jpg

64bab756e83feedf2358a001deaf4e2b.jpg

 

Tried to clean it with Visibledust wet cleaning, but it stayed the same.

Hopefully photos are clear enough.

 

 

It's definitely corrosion. Contact Leica and arrange to send it in, they will replace the sensor at no charge to you. 

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