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Pessoa1

Frameline problem with M240 and summicron 35mm

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Hi all,

 

So last weekend I had my first full weekend shooting with the M240 and a new summicron 35mm ASPH. I have run into a problem which I kind of noticed but thought it was 'just me' when I shot a few snaps in NY before returning to Braz.

 

The upper frame line through the camera's viewfinder seems to be out by quite a bit when using the summicron 35. When I frame for a shot, the sensor detects and records significantly above the upper frame line leaving me with rather unbalanced shots at all distances.

 

When using the EVF, the sensor records exactly what is seen and I had to rely on this a lot to frame accurately which was really not ideal because of the shutter lag and the way it chews through batteries. The manual says that the frame lines should be accurate from 2 metres to infinity - 'largely congruent.'

 

Am I doing something wrong? Can I personally fix this?

 

Best,

Edited by Pessoa1

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http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2554279-post12.html

 

This uses the M9 frame lines, optimized for 1m, but the same principle applies to the M frame lines, which are optimized for 2m.

 

Jeff

 

"3. The most important factor: A lens changes its angle of view when focussing. The easiest way to visualize this is to think that the lens gets longer (i.e. more tele) as you focus closer. So it will have a smaller field of view at the closest focussing distance. That can be up to 20% difference.

That means that the framelines can only be accurate at one focussing distance, in the case of the M9 at 1 meter. At all further focussing distances you will get more on the image than the framelines show.

For a 50 mm lens allow one frameline thickness outside the frame at 3 m and three frameline thicknesses outside the frame at infinity. Experience will teach you how to handle this phenomena."

 

Thanks Jeff.

 

I suppose I need to discover the optimum focusing distance which I think is 2 metres for the summicron. Once I discover and see that the image is accurately displaying what is in the frame lines then I can rest easy knowing that the larger image is due to the above answer which you directed me too. And learning how to work with it.

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I suppose I need to discover the optimum focusing distance which I think is 2 metres for the summicron.

 

It's 2m for any of the frame lines (focal lengths) on the M240. You just need to get a feel for how the picture appears, relative to the frame lines, when at different distances for different focal lengths. This learning process can now be speeded up using the EVF to check actual framing compared to the camera VF.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S

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It's 2m for any of the frame lines (focal lengths) on the M240. You just need to get a feel for how the picture appears, relative to the frame lines, when at different distances for different focal lengths. This learning process can now be speeded up using the EVF to check actual framing compared to the camera VF.

 

Jeff

 

Thanks, Jeff - yes, a series of pictures using EVF, then without using the EVF at the same focal lengths will give me a way to proceed.

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...yes, a series of pictures using EVF, then without using the EVF at the same focal lengths will give me a way to proceed.

 

This may be obvious, but assuming the camera position and settings remain constant, the resultant images will be identical (to the LV framing). The trick is to gauge where the frame lines are in relation to that actual desired pic. Practice heals all.

 

Better to include too much rather than too little in the frame IMO…one can always crop; going the other way is a problem. I intentionally leave a bit of room for over-matting purposes in case I decide to frame a pic….or in case I need to straighten/level a pic in PP.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S

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Better to include too much rather than too little in the frame IMO…one can always crop; going the other way is a problem. I intentionally leave a bit of room for over-matting purposes in case I decide to frame a pic….or in case I need to straighten/level a pic in PP.

 

This has been the view of most cameras in "film" days, as even most of the SLRs showed less in the finder than was recorded on film. Of course, when projecting slides you didn't crop and recompose like you could in printing, but slide mounts covered some of the edges of the frame too.

 

It has only been with EVF and live view that you could see exactly the borders of the image.

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It has only been with EVF and live view that you could see exactly the borders of the image.

 

My large format film cameras did a fine job showing exact framing.

 

I shot slides for many years with various cameras, including film Ms. The issue here isn't so much whether one can crop after the fact (although that often affects how I compose), but how the pic appears and is composed relative to the M frame lines….sometimes more is shown, sometimes less, depending on optimized distance and distance to subject. The issue is independent of film versus digital.

 

Jeff

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This may be obvious, but assuming the camera position and settings remain constant, the resultant images will be identical (to the LV framing). The trick is to gauge where the frame lines are in relation to that actual desired pic. Practice heals all.

 

Better to include too much rather than too little in the frame IMO…one can always crop; going the other way is a problem. I intentionally leave a bit of room for over-matting purposes in case I decide to frame a pic….or in case I need to straighten/level a pic in PP.

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

 

So, I measured the distance from the object (object to the lens barrel w/o lens shade). and took some shots. In my camera's case, the frame lines using the viewfinder display mostly accurately what ends up on the image at 1.80. Granted without a tripod but as accurate as I could manage.

 

At infinity, I have slightly over one frame line thickness outside of what was framed using the frame lines (this is as regards to the upper frame line) - that's without adjusting focus and settings and taking a shot using the EVF then the viewfinder from the same position. That's all normal, right?

 

I should add that like the top frame line includes more, the bottom frame line includes less, if you can understand that. It's almost as if the viewfinder frame lines are set higher than the lens.

 

Excuse me being bothersome about it but I was taught many years ago, 'sort the background out, and the rest will follow.' So I have always looked at what's behind a subject and excluded or included things behind before taking a shot. Hence being maybe overly concerned with what's going on at the edges of a picture.

Edited by Pessoa1
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...that's without adjusting focus and settings and taking a shot using the EVF then the viewfinder from the same position.

 

You of course need to focus accurately before making any judgments...frame lines shift as you adjust focus distance.

 

I'd worry less about measurements and more about how pics appear compared to frame lines. That comes over time from taking pics. But setting up a tripod can't hurt; it will allow you to compare the VF to LV, the latter being what the sensor 'sees'.

 

I also care a lot about what's happening at the edges of the frame, but one must recognize that the M is not the most precise framing tool compared to some other viewing systems. It has its advantages, though, including being able to see 'outside the lines'.

 

Jeff

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Note however that the angle of view of the lens changes as the lens focus is changed, for optical reasons with the widest angle at the lens focused on infinity.

There is a beautiful German word for it : Bildfeldschwund, which means shrinking field of view.

Looking through the EVF you will see that each plane of focus has its own field of view.

 

The reason is that as the lens focus distance is altered the optical system moves in relationship to the sensor (film) resulting in a different "focal length".

 

Obviously the framelines will always indicate the same field of view, so they can be correct for one distance setting only. Leica chooses, depending on the camera model, either to use the shortest distance setting (1m) to prevent the inadvertent cropping of the edges of the image, or a distance of 2m to mitigate the effect of the Bildfeldschwund, but this has a slight risk of cutting off an essential part on the edge of the image at shorter distance settings.

 

Additionally the framelines move to correct for parallax. This cannot be perfect either, as they cannot shift the perspective. In some cases this can lead to perspective discrepancies between the viewfinder and the actual image.

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Leica chooses, depending on the camera model, either to use the shortest distance setting (1m) to prevent the inadvertent cropping of the edges of the image, or a distance of 2m to mitigate the effect of the Bildfeldschwund...

 

Leica chose .7m for the M8 (changed to 2m for the M8.2 or upgraded M8).

 

Jeff

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