Jeff S Posted December 30, 2014 Share #81 Posted December 30, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) If I had a Fuji system, I wouldn't visit here - what would be the point? Lots of people here own multiple cameras/systems, including Leica. And many others enjoy following the forum even though they aren't (currently) customers. I don't see your point. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 Hi Jeff S, Take a look here Erwin Puts: " Leica can not disregard the writing at the wall". I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted December 30, 2014 Share #82 Posted December 30, 2014 Really? I said nothing about multiple system owners. I was referring to bill posting that he had moved out of Leica gear and into (a lot of) Fuji gear, yet according to bill people wonder why he no longer posts here. He is no loss (for me and others). But posting to explain why he's no longer posting, and implying he is missed strikes me as tragic in the extreme. Why bother if you're no longer using Leica - unless you enjoy the company (which he seemed to be saying he didn't). It's a bit like typing in the middle of an empty page "this page has been left blank". Ah, no it hasn't. I hope that clarifies my post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalHeMan Posted December 30, 2014 Share #83 Posted December 30, 2014 Really? I said nothing about multiple system owners. I was referring to bill posting that he had moved out of Leica gear and into (a lot of) Fuji gear, yet according to bill people wonder why he no longer posts here. He is no loss (for me and others). But posting to explain why he's no longer posting, and implying he is missed strikes me as tragic in the extreme. Why bother if you're no longer using Leica - unless you enjoy the company (which he seemed to be saying he didn't). It's a bit like typing in the middle of an empty page "this page has been left blank". Ah, no it hasn't. I hope that clarifies my post. I'm not sure why you are so hard on bill. He has contributed a lot to the forum over the years, both on and offline. It doesn't surprise me at all that he chooses not to post when you are negatively analyzing his words every time he does. Maybe it's better if you just don't react to him, or maybe count to ten before you do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 30, 2014 Share #84 Posted December 30, 2014 It's not about "retro-look", whatever that is. It's about form factor. Come on Bill, actually its not! Its about the whole package. To date there are no cameras which can compete with the M rangefinder in terms of what it offers; I've said before that anyone who has used an M3 can, with minimal instruction of the inherently digital requirements (ie. menu ISO, where to put battery and card, etc), use a digital M. And if anyone is really honest about it there is a lot of 'retro-look' design in many cameras (and other products) which is fundamentally for marketing/design familiarity not ergonomics. Equally if we are really honest about it many Leicas are still bought because of the name, price, 'snob-value' and so on. But that doesn't make them anything less of an excellent tool if used appropriately. I actually enjoy using my M cameras (odd idea I know). I have met very few people who have any idea what they are though - the odd photographically informed person, but not many - so I'd suggest that any 'snob-value' from owning or using one is now, in reality, very minimal indeed. And FWIW if others enjoy using different cameras I have no problem with that whatsoever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunkelblau Posted December 30, 2014 Share #85 Posted December 30, 2014 I'm not sure why you are so hard on bill. He has contributed a lot to the forum over the years, both on and offline. It doesn't surprise me at all that he chooses not to post when you are negatively analyzing his words every time he does. Maybe it's better if you just don't react to him, or maybe count to ten before you do. Thanks for that; my thoughts exactly. And if counting to ten doesn't help, IkJo, you should count to one hundred as far as I'm concerned. Bill made his points in a polite way and your two replies were beyond snidey. And no, I don't care, what past history the two of you have together, thank you very much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 30, 2014 Share #86 Posted December 30, 2014 Ok, Gents, let's stop analyzing other members. If I am not ruffled at Bill's post, nobody should be Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick in CO Posted December 30, 2014 Share #87 Posted December 30, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Erwin Puts posted a follow-up: "Leica: the new reality" stating that Leica cannot rest on its past laurels, "the New Leica has to prove itself". Lets face it, the issues with the M8 and M9 has threatened Leica's reputation for producing a quality product. The M240 may have solved those issues, but at what cost to its reputation among the general public? Maybe the general public doesn't matter to some readers of this forum, but that is the target group of Leica's diversification into lower-cost product lines. How will Leica attract that group into buying its products when a) there are less expensive alternatives, and its reputation for quality, a major reason for purchasing Leica,has been called into question? Add to that the plethora of articles on the internet about using Leica lenses on various other maker camera bodies and the question may be how much longer the M camera can survive in the marketplace? Maybe, remembering the 70's and the M4-2, the answer is yes. The lesson from that history is that Leica stayed with what made it unique. The comments above about the Sony A7 series camera are pertinent. What would an auto-focusing, EVF, native M mount camera look like? I'm very surprised Sony/Zeiss haven't done it yet! Leica needs to continue the M evolution on its present course, but energetically address the quality issues with the M9/MM. And don't knock the Kodak sensor, which many M users prefer - its the Schott cover glass that has the issues! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted December 30, 2014 Share #88 Posted December 30, 2014 It might be useful to remind all concerned of the first few months after the announcement and the launch of the M (Tp 240) and the - partly quite nasty - comments about Leica's production capabilities. Again, we read of people having to wait for their T lenses. There are fates worse than being overwhelmed by demand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 30, 2014 Share #89 Posted December 30, 2014 What general public? I would say that 99.98 % of the general population has no interest whatever in a Leica M and is completely unaware of these "issues". Leica is trying to increase its penetration by diversifying its product palette, not by popularizing the M series. Erwin Puts posted a follow-up: "Leica: the new reality" stating that Leica cannot rest on its past laurels, "the New Leica has to prove itself". Lets face it, the issues with the M8 and M9 has threatened Leica's reputation for producing a quality product. The M240 may have solved those issues, but at what cost to its reputation among the general public? Maybe the general public doesn't matter to some readers of this forum, but that is the target group of Leica's diversification into lower-cost product lines. How will Leica attract that group into buying its products when a) there are less expensive alternatives, and its reputation for quality, a major reason for purchasing Leica,has been called into question? Add to that the plethora of articles on the internet about using Leica lenses on various other maker camera bodies and the question may be how much longer the M camera can survive in the marketplace? Maybe, remembering the 70's and the M4-2, the answer is yes. The lesson from that history is that Leica stayed with what made it unique. The comments above about the Sony A7 series camera are pertinent. What would an auto-focusing, EVF, native M mount camera look like? I'm very surprised Sony/Zeiss haven't done it yet! Leica needs to continue the M evolution on its present course, but energetically address the quality issues with the M9/MM. And don't knock the Kodak sensor, which many M users prefer - its the Schott cover glass that has the issues! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick in CO Posted December 30, 2014 Share #90 Posted December 30, 2014 What general public? I would say that 99.98 % of the general population has no interest whatever in a Leica M and is completely unaware of these "issues". Leica is trying to increase its penetration by diversifying its product palette, not by popularizing the M series. I think the general public, or more specifically the customer interested in purchasing an entry level Leica camera, is better informed than you might think. Anyone spending several hundred dollars will do their internet research diligence. And if not, they likely will run into that salesperson who might relate that Leica used to be quality, but now has the same issues as everyone else. That is the dilemma facing Leica's future success, and the point made by Mr Puts. I didn't suggest that everyone would want to buy an M camera, but that the appeal of the marque is inherent in its flagship product. Leica needs to do everything it can to maintain their quality reputation, even if it cuts into it profit margin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted December 30, 2014 Share #91 Posted December 30, 2014 There are fates worse than being overwhelmed by demand. Not having the product to meet demand is not much better than there being no demand in the first place. However, Leica's current problem isn't "being overwhelmed by demand" but more like becoming overwhelmed by stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrp Posted December 31, 2014 Share #92 Posted December 31, 2014 The lesson from that history is that Leica stayed with what made it unique. The comments above about the Sony A7 series camera are pertinent. What would an auto-focusing, EVF, native M mount camera look like? I'm very surprised Sony/Zeiss haven't done it yet! Leica needs to continue the M evolution on its present course, but energetically address the quality issues with the M9/MM. And don't knock the Kodak sensor, which many M users prefer - its the Schott cover glass that has the issues! What do you consider makes Leica unique? (I'd say that it's the weight of the high performance lenses.) If Leica lenses worked well on Sony bodies, I'd prefer them over M bodies (better sensors, metering, some tech assistance when needed). In my case I'd prefer AF lenses. What's holding back Sony at the moment is a lack of light lenses. If Fuji cameras were full frame, that would be the answer. Indeed I cannot think of an objective reason for my having gone a dual Leica & Sony route, rather than Fuji, even thought they are crop frame. I think that it was probably the X-Pro bugs at time of launch. The only way of tackling the Leica quality issues is greater automation, which would run counter to the M brand hand built ethos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
awesom3 Posted December 31, 2014 Share #93 Posted December 31, 2014 Erwin Puts posted a follow-up: "Leica: the new reality" stating that Leica cannot rest on its past laurels, "the New Leica has to prove itself". Lets face it, the issues with the M8 and M9 has threatened Leica's reputation for producing a quality product. having bought both an M9 and MM the recent news about the sensors degrading, cracking and what have you, I know I will find it extremely difficult to buy into the next Leica M when my M9 bites the dust (hopefully not for a few more years). What Leica needs to do is put out a quality product for the price they demand. When the airbags don't fire you got to recall - I sense a class action lawsuit coming for the whole sensor debacle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 31, 2014 Share #94 Posted December 31, 2014 What do you consider makes Leica unique? It is a rangefinder. Good answer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted December 31, 2014 Share #95 Posted December 31, 2014 When the airbags don't fire you got to recall - I sense a class action lawsuit coming for the whole sensor debacle. The airbags do fire in this case. If the sensor works fine, there's no problem. If the sensor shows signs of the problem, it is replaced foc. Your life and limb are not at risk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 31, 2014 Share #96 Posted December 31, 2014 having bought both an M9 and MM the recent news about the sensors degrading, cracking and what have you, I know I will find it extremely difficult to buy into the next Leica M when my M9 bites the dust (hopefully not for a few more years). What Leica needs to do is put out a quality product for the price they demand. When the airbags don't fire you got to recall - I sense a class action lawsuit coming for the whole sensor debacle.In that case the only one to profit will be the lawfirm. The solution Leica proposes is quite satisfactory and customerfriendly. It is not as if a corroding sensor will ruin a shoot right away. The images remain usable until the problem gets really bad, which takes quite a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2014 Share #97 Posted December 31, 2014 Fujifilm cameras remind me of the Miata sports car. Wishing Fuji to have Mazda's sales figures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrp Posted December 31, 2014 Share #98 Posted December 31, 2014 It is a rangefinder. Good answer? Well it is clearly an answer, even a factually correct one, but it is not a particularly illuminating one in the context of this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 31, 2014 Share #99 Posted December 31, 2014 Well it is clearly an answer, even a factually correct one, but it is not a particularly illuminating one in the context of this thread. You asked "What do you consider makes Leica unique?" so i was just responding to your question. Remove the rangefinder of M240 bodies and you get outdated mirrorless cameras with little chance to survive in spite of their best IQ with M wides so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick in CO Posted December 31, 2014 Share #100 Posted December 31, 2014 You asked "What do you consider makes Leica unique?" so i was just responding to your question. Remove the rangefinder of M240 bodies and you get outdated mirrorless cameras with little chance to survive in spite of their best IQ with M wides so far. Exactly. That and the reputation for excellence of the product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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