Someone stop me from buying an M8!

[bender73]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Ok, a little background. I am a pro photographer on the side. I usually shoot 5 weddings a year and a bunch of family sessions/portraits. My main gear is a big roller bag of Nikon bodies and glass.

 

I recently purchased a Fuji X100. Had an X1, but I missed a viewfinder.

 

So, I love photography and often shoot with a Nikon FE and Yashica-D for fun. I get tired of always shooting a big D3 with 70-200 f/2.8 lens. The D800 is simply AWESOME. But, it is still big to walk around with. I end up putting cheaper glass on it for the sake of weight.

 

Now, the M9 and above is out of my price range unless I unload some gear. Perhaps get rid of my 24-70 f/2.8 because as much as it is great glass, it is heavy and I use the 70-200 almost exclusively, even for all family portraits.

 

The M8 is intriguing me since it can be had for the price of a used Nikkor 24-70 and an Elmarit 28mm won't break the bank.

 

But, I have a few fears...

 

1. ISO. Not a huge deal as I read 1250 is usable and Lightroom cleans images nicely. I also heard the noise is more film-like and converts to B&W perfectly! I have my D3/D800 for high ISO work.

 

2. Repairs. This is the biggie. I am not a wealthy Leica collector, so if the sensor fails I heard there is no repair. It is a paper weight.

 

So, I REALLY want to begin my Leica experience. I turned 40 and it seems like the thing to do. LOL

 

Is the M8 safe/durable/unlikely to fail? Will I be "satisfied" with the image quality at ISO 800 and below? Flash? Can I use a manual Vivitar 285HV?

 

Thanks for reading!

 

Chris

[otto.f]

I won't. The only thing may be a coffee stain on your screen, but then you can see it as a Screenless Leica M, which can only be bought new nowadays for 15000€ or so.

If the sensor gives up you'll get an offer from Leica to step in a new M for a soft price, perhaps an M-E or so

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[250swb]

Chris, I would wait until your finances and or the prices of an M9 match. The M8 is still a great camera, but it does come with its own level of expenditure, such as needing wider lenses to compensate for the sensor crop, and wider lenses are generally more expensive than longer lenses.

 

Steve

[otto.f]

Forget about flash btw, that's Nikon or DSLR thinking. On an M it's a hustle because it's beyond its philosophy. And yes, 640 is the highest possible ISO if you want to keep it decent. That is a severe come down from your D800

[bender73]

Forget about flash btw, that's Nikon or DSLR thinking. On an M it's a hustle because it's beyond its philosophy. And yes, 640 is the highest possible ISO if you want to keep it decent. That is a severe come down from your D800

 

640? damn.

 

I dunno, the X100 is looking better and better.

 

(sort of)

 

I am looking to be inspired. I love to shoot with DSLRs, but I am looking for an experience. A simple approach to pure photography. There seems like there is something rewarding to be able to do it with ISO 640, all manual, and no flash.

 

I would never abandon my D3/D800 combo, but it would be nice to bring something like an M8 to a local fair with the wife and kids and not lug around a pro DSLR body. The X100 is great! It just is too "modern" if you know what I mean. I dunno. Maybe I need to find myself or something.

[Jeff S]

Regardless of M model, buy from a reputable dealer with some form of warranty and carry your own comprehensive insurance for everything else. Then you can just think about pics.

 

Your primary issue with the M (8 or 9) will not likely be the files; rather, it's whether you bond with the rangefinder experience.

 

Jeff

Edited November 4, 2014 by Jeff S

[bender73]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Regardless of M model, buy from a reputable dealer with some form of warranty and carry your own comprehensive insurance for everything else. Then you can just think about pics.

 

Jeff

 

I did not even think of that. Duh. My camera gear is all insured through a commercial provider, but I did not think of a new M8/M9 as a "business camera." However, every wedding/portrait session I do I would take one photo. If there is some catastrophic sensor failure, I have it fully insured. Sort of a bonus I never thought of.

[Jeff S]

I'm not a pro, yet I'm able to carry insurance as a rider to my premium home policy….very inexpensive and covers all circumstances (including my own negligence), at full replacement and no deductible. Plans of course vary by company, location and individual circumstance.

 

Jeff

[bender73]

I'm not a pro, yet I'm able to carry insurance as a rider to my premium home policy….very inexpensive and covers all circumstances (including my own negligence), at full replacement and no deductible. Plans of course vary by company, location and individual circumstance.

 

Jeff

 

I just checked and my ins covers everything accidental. But, I would check with your policy because camera "failures" are usually not covered. Now if it fails and you get ticked off and throw it against a wall, I am not sure!

[otto.f]

640? damn.

 

I dunno, the X100 is looking better and better.

 

(sort of)

 

I am looking to be inspired. I love to shoot with DSLRs, but I am looking for an experience. A simple approach to pure photography. There seems like there is something rewarding to be able to do it with ISO 640, all manual, and no flash.

 

I would never abandon my D3/D800 combo, but it would be nice to bring something like an M8 to a local fair with the wife and kids and not lug around a pro DSLR body. The X100 is great! It just is too "modern" if you know what I mean. I dunno. Maybe I need to find myself or something.

 

The real happiness lies in a lens not in a body. For the APO-Elmarit 180 R for instance, I took the R8 for granted. For my SAA 90, I would take some M for granted, or maybe some Sony A7.

There is one exception: the Monochrome, it stays with me for life

[Jeff S]

But, I would check with your policy because camera "failures" are usually not covered.

 

Thanks, but I'm well aware of my policy, which covers all circumstances, worldwide, even due to my own negligence or stupidity. Each item is covered at a value that I determine (and has automatic escalators to an additional 50% if prices rise and/or items are discontinued).

 

As I said, it's a separate rider to my home policy, not the home contents. I've had similar policies for over 35 years with zero follow-up problems.

 

Jeff

Edited November 5, 2014 by Jeff S

[Loren]

Ok, a little background. I am a pro photographer on the side. I usually shoot 5 weddings a year and a bunch of family sessions/portraits. My main gear is a big roller bag of Nikon bodies and glass.

 

I recently purchased a Fuji X100. Had an X1, but I missed a viewfinder.

 

So, I love photography and often shoot with a Nikon FE and Yashica-D for fun. I get tired of always shooting a big D3 with 70-200 f/2.8 lens. The D800 is simply AWESOME. But, it is still big to walk around with. I end up putting cheaper glass on it for the sake of weight.

 

Now, the M9 and above is out of my price range unless I unload some gear. Perhaps get rid of my 24-70 f/2.8 because as much as it is great glass, it is heavy and I use the 70-200 almost exclusively, even for all family portraits.

 

The M8 is intriguing me since it can be had for the price of a used Nikkor 24-70 and an Elmarit 28mm won't break the bank.

 

But, I have a few fears...

 

1. ISO. Not a huge deal as I read 1250 is usable and Lightroom cleans images nicely. I also heard the noise is more film-like and converts to B&W perfectly! I have my D3/D800 for high ISO work.

 

2. Repairs. This is the biggie. I am not a wealthy Leica collector, so if the sensor fails I heard there is no repair. It is a paper weight.

 

So, I REALLY want to begin my Leica experience. I turned 40 and it seems like the thing to do. LOL

 

Is the M8 safe/durable/unlikely to fail? Will I be "satisfied" with the image quality at ISO 800 and below? Flash? Can I use a manual Vivitar 285HV?

 

Thanks for reading!

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

I have the D800 and D700 and use those for critical work (I am not a pro), but after much agonizing about finding the ultimate fun camera for casual shooting I finally caved in and bought an M8.

 

I really did not want a crop camera and the ISO restrictions worried me, but in the end I find that the M8 is used now better than 90% of the time for shooting.

 

ISO 640 is about the limit, but that is actually an equivalent of ISO 800, so it just squeaks in.

 

The lack of high ISO performance is less of an issue and more of a challenge. You need to find ways to adjust to it, which is part of the mystique of the M8.

 

IQ wise I am quite pleasantly surprised. I will not be doing large prints with it, but the reality is that there is enough resolution for most of my shooting. The color rendering is excellent and B&W is darn good.

 

The big thing with the M8 is it forces you to think and shoot differently than the Nikons. My D800 is amazing, but the M8 scratches an itch that I just can't get with any Nikon digital camera and has introduced a whole new dimension of fun in my shooting.

 

In many ways the M8's limitations are the very things that make it an endearing system.

 

I don't know about that flash you mentioned, but a TTL compatible flash will give you more options than a non-TTL flash.

 

I use a Leica SF-24D. It does not have a moveable head, but my experience with on-camera mounted flash is that unless you are using multiple flash units in something like the Nikon Commander mode, flash generally yields less than stellar results, even with a moveable head.

 

As far as reliability goes, it seems to be as bulletproof as any good camera. You may need to have it periodically serviced to adjust the rangefinder mechanism (or learn how to DIY), but the sensors are not a replacement issue. Leica still has them as far as I know, but they don't seem to be a failure issue.

 

The real problem is the LCD display on the back. That part is no longer available and there have been some cameras that exhibit a staining of the LCD (coffee stain) that renders part (or all) of the display with a degraded image.

 

Both of our M8s do not have this issue, but the LCD is not really that useful as a high quality reproduction of the shot you just took and it is more useful for navigating the menus in the camera.

 

I have heard some people just ignore it, yet others have been dissatisfied and either tossed the camera or taken up Leica's trade-in offer towards a new M camera.

 

No one really knows the extent of the problem or what percentage have failed.

 

Frankly, it's a roll of the dice, but I bough mine with disposable cash and if the worst happens, then so it goes...

 

Meanwhile, I am really enjoying the ride.

 

If you can't afford the possibility of a loss, then a new camera with a warranty is a better alternative. However, if you have a dash of daring, then odds are in your favor you will find the M8 a whole lot of fun.

[Jeff S]

If you can't afford the possibility of a loss, then a new camera with a warranty is a better alternative.

 

No, that's what insurance is for…see above. [And (limited) warranties still apply to used cameras when using reputable dealers.]

 

Remarkable how many folks seem not to carry insurance.

 

Jeff

[bender73]

Chris,

 

I have the D800 and D700 and use those for critical work (I am not a pro), but after much agonizing about finding the ultimate fun camera for casual shooting I finally caved in and bought an M8.

 

I really did not want a crop camera and the ISO restrictions worried me, but in the end I find that the M8 is used now better than 90% of the time for shooting.

 

ISO 640 is about the limit, but that is actually an equivalent of ISO 800, so it just squeaks in.

 

The lack of high ISO performance is less of an issue and more of a challenge. You need to find ways to adjust to it, which is part of the mystique of the M8.

 

IQ wise I am quite pleasantly surprised. I will not be doing large prints with it, but the reality is that there is enough resolution for most of my shooting. The color rendering is excellent and B&W is darn good.

 

The big thing with the M8 is it forces you to think and shoot differently than the Nikons. My D800 is amazing, but the M8 scratches an itch that I just can't get with any Nikon digital camera and has introduced a whole new dimension of fun in my shooting.

 

In many ways the M8's limitations are the very things that make it an endearing system.

 

I don't know about that flash you mentioned, but a TTL compatible flash will give you more options than a non-TTL flash.

 

I use a Leica SF-24D. It does not have a moveable head, but my experience with on-camera mounted flash is that unless you are using multiple flash units in something like the Nikon Commander mode, flash generally yields less than stellar results, even with a moveable head.

 

As far as reliability goes, it seems to be as bulletproof as any good camera. You may need to have it periodically serviced to adjust the rangefinder mechanism (or learn how to DIY), but the sensors are not a replacement issue. Leica still has them as far as I know, but they don't seem to be a failure issue.

 

The real problem is the LCD display on the back. That part is no longer available and there have been some cameras that exhibit a staining of the LCD (coffee stain) that renders part (or all) of the display with a degraded image.

 

Both of our M8s do not have this issue, but the LCD is not really that useful as a high quality reproduction of the shot you just took and it is more useful for navigating the menus in the camera.

 

I have heard some people just ignore it, yet others have been dissatisfied and either tossed the camera or taken up Leica's trade-in offer towards a new M camera.

 

No one really knows the extent of the problem or what percentage have failed.

 

Frankly, it's a roll of the dice, but I bough mine with disposable cash and if the worst happens, then so it goes...

 

Meanwhile, I am really enjoying the ride.

 

If you can't afford the possibility of a loss, then a new camera with a warranty is a better alternative. However, if you have a dash of daring, then odds are in your favor you will find the M8 a whole lot of fun.

 

Wonderful reply! Thank you.

 

I LOVE my D800. I LOVE my D3. But, I Looooong for a classy Leica that I can take with me into Boston when I walk the streets with my wife. The D3 just makes me look like a tool. LOL. Add a 70-200 and I should be on the sideline at Gillette Stadium.

 

The X100 is great, but it is just more of the same, in a smaller package. I could be happy with it so I guess I have a first world problem.

 

I shoot weddings but I hardly ever use my 24-70 f/2.8 otherwise. I might just sell that lens in favor of used Leica lens in the neighborhood of $1,300. The 70-200 f/2.8 will NEVER leave my side. It is optical perfection in Nikon world. I would put that glass up against a lot of Leica glass.

 

Thanks again. Let's see how this all unfolds.

[tobey bilek]

M8 is a decent camera if you can use wider lenses to make up crop factor and UV/IR filters to get the colors correct. Probably need to code lenses 35 and shorter.

 

I worked for 6 months trying to get around all the above. Can not be done for color work.

 

After you do all the above, the colors are still a bit funky. USe Adobe Labs color matching and it gets pretty close to NIKON colors.

 

Lots can be done with noise. Higher iso has lots of color noise, ie speckles. Clean this up first, then do luminance reduction. That is how you get to 1250 form 640.

 

Imaging resource image comparometer has M9 samples for different iso.

Same sensor, just use the middle 75% linearly.

 

If you can not afford the upkeep, then stay away from Leica.

 

A D3200 or 3300 makes a great carry camera. Image quality is right up there. Put the DX 35 1.8 on it.

 

A Leica is small, not light. And you NEED the best lenses to make it shine.

[bender73]

M8 is a decent camera if you can use wider lenses to make up crop factor and UV/IR filters to get the colors correct. Probably need to code lenses 35 and shorter.

 

I worked for 6 months trying to get around all the above. Can not be done for color work.

 

After you do all the above, the colors are still a bit funky. USe Adobe Labs color matching and it gets pretty close to NIKON colors.

 

Lots can be done with noise. Higher iso has lots of color noise, ie speckles. Clean this up first, then do luminance reduction. That is how you get to 1250 form 640.

 

Imaging resource image comparometer has M9 samples for different iso.

Same sensor, just use the middle 75% linearly.

 

If you can not afford the upkeep, then stay away from Leica.

 

A D3200 or 3300 makes a great carry camera. Image quality is right up there. Put the DX 35 1.8 on it.

 

A Leica is small, not light. And you NEED the best lenses to make it shine.

 

"Cannot be done for color work" is an absurd statement. Go to Flickr and see all the beautiful M8 images. I am also not a rookie. I am 41 and grew up with a dark room. I also shoot professionally. IQ of a D3200 is certainly nice, but not at all what I am looking for.

 

I do thank you for the reply.

[otto.f]

Colors with an M8 ? With the Summilix 50 asph: unmatched in my experience. Very good IR photography too, which is an advance above every M after the M8

[bla]

I feel one is missing the point when trying to tweak the M8 to "get it pretty close to NIKON colors"

Jeez!

Some call it funky, to others it's the Leica look...

 

Hi Chris,

being (digitally speaking) an "old lady" the M8 really can deliver. Done correctly ISO 1250 (and a little bit more) can be quite good, too. Depends on the light, the lens, the subject...

 

Pro tip: don't ever shoot it at anything else than ISO 160 and push it in LR or whatever you're using.

 

The coffee stain will not render the screen unusable, just make it a little less good. Although I have to admit it'll not blast you away quality-wise to begin with. ^^ It's not like there have been millions of users complaining about the problem, so I think it's not happening too often. Additionally it seems to disappear after some time by itself. So don't let that be scaring you.

 

With a bright 35 you have a sweet 50mm equivalent rangefinder. Adding a 50mm gives you a wide portrait lens and a 75 will be a 100mm tele, so there's plenty of options.

 

Did not use wide angle much, so can't tell you much about that. As I am uncomfortable with wide angle lenses, the crop factor doesn't hurt me. And cropping away some of most lenses nastier areas can't be bad either?

 

So if you find one that you like and you have some dough that burns in your pocket, go for it. For all it's worth you can sell it with little to no loss if you don't like it, so really no risk unless you run it over with your car or drop it in the ocean or such like.

 

And do use UV/IR filters. Although not needed for b/w it sucks if one decides in processing to switch to color for one beautiful image and then notices irreparable pink/yellow funk going on! Been there, done that...

 

Have fun buying new stuff and be angry at me if you don't like it ^^ (no risk there)

 

Cheers,

Arvid

[rbelyell]

like you i was looking for a bit of inspiration, a bit more 'fun' in the shooting experience. i come from film slr's and have had a variety of digitals since their inception, in a variety of formats from FF, apsc and m4/3. i loved the manual focusing experience, but didnt like its digital implementation. i loved M glass because of the IQ, character and compact size.

 

so i decided on a lower rf cost option, hoping to improve the focus experience and limit my dollar exposure. so i bought an epson rd1 for less than half the m8 price. yup its only 6mp. but i have zero problem getting good resukts at 1600. it has a 1:1 viewfinder, which is simply awesome and imo cannot be overstated. i use it with a 21/2.8 elmarit (32mm equiv), a summarit 50/1.5 (75mm) and a summarit 75/2.5 (115mm). very versatile kit. for extreme low light i use something else.

 

but for what i can do with it, it IS VERY INSPIRING. i reach for it more often than my incredible sony rx1 with zeiss 35/2. its just so much fun, so engaging, especially the lifessize finder.

 

i still think about the m8, but giving up 1600 AND the 1:1 finder stops me. just wanted to give you another perective and a much lower cost option.

 

good luck to you

Edited November 5, 2014 by rbelyell

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[bender73]

I feel one is missing the point when trying to tweak the M8 to "get it pretty close to NIKON colors"

Jeez!

Some call it funky, to others it's the Leica look...

 

Hi Chris,

being (digitally speaking) an "old lady" the M8 really can deliver. Done correctly ISO 1250 (and a little bit more) can be quite good, too. Depends on the light, the lens, the subject...

 

Pro tip: don't ever shoot it at anything else than ISO 160 and push it in LR or whatever you're using.

 

The coffee stain will not render the screen unusable, just make it a little less good. Although I have to admit it'll not blast you away quality-wise to begin with. ^^ It's not like there have been millions of users complaining about the problem, so I think it's not happening too often. Additionally it seems to disappear after some time by itself. So don't let that be scaring you.

 

With a bright 35 you have a sweet 50mm equivalent rangefinder. Adding a 50mm gives you a wide portrait lens and a 75 will be a 100mm tele, so there's plenty of options.

 

Did not use wide angle much, so can't tell you much about that. As I am uncomfortable with wide angle lenses, the crop factor doesn't hurt me. And cropping away some of most lenses nastier areas can't be bad either?

 

So if you find one that you like and you have some dough that burns in your pocket, go for it. For all it's worth you can sell it with little to no loss if you don't like it, so really no risk unless you run it over with your car or drop it in the ocean or such like.

 

And do use UV/IR filters. Although not needed for b/w it sucks if one decides in processing to switch to color for one beautiful image and then notices irreparable pink/yellow funk going on! Been there, done that...

 

Have fun buying new stuff and be angry at me if you don't like it ^^ (no risk there)

 

Cheers,

Arvid

 

Thanks! Then there really is no risk because it will be covered under my accidental me being dumb insurance so an ocean is not a real issue. LOL

 

I know going in I am not buying a D4. I am going backwards in order to go forwards.