Very interesting field review of the M8...

[ddp]

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It took me more than 30 years. The photographers you refer to don't whine - they know the value of the equipment - That is why they want it.

 

Sorry...but the reality is some will view the comment as elitist and will further reinforce in their minds what they dislike about Leica users.

[wparsonsgisnet]

1. I still can't believe I paid so much for the M8. But, it was less than many were expecting and I saved for 2 years to do it.

 

2. I don't understand: I don't beat up the Canon owners. Who do they think they are?

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Don't disagree Alan it can be a very expensive route no question but still there are alternative lenses that can help reduce these costs in lens like the Zeiss and CV line and no one would argue the range a DSLR can do compared to the RF world. i have found several work arounds like tethered that it does work very nice with LR a little slow but still a great option. Macro is not such a big deal after all but shift and such yes that can be and is a issue. Than the other side of this coin and I have done this is spend a lot of money on Leica glass to put on a Canon too so the checks and balances are all over the place and not one is better overall than the other but what works for the shooter. i still get nervous becuase that is all i have is the M8 system and said that several times when the phone rings i have to ask can this gear get it done, I think i will always do that because of the limitations. My answer is i can always rent but that is from a pro's prespective and not what most hobbyists would do and they do have to look at what they shoot and what fits better.

 

I do think Alan you should try it and see if it works to some degree in your system ,not as primary but a good solution to some work be surprised how much you will like working with it

[sean_reid]

 

1. You left out the cost of the lenses. One M8 body and a wide, normal and tele will set a buyer back more than $10,000-$12,000.

 

Not necessarily.

 

M8 - $4800

CV 28/1.9 - $450

CV 50/1.5 - $340

CV 75/2.5 - $300

3 LT-M8 Milich Adapters - $450

 

System cost in that case would be $6340 and it would be very versatile and produce exceptional file quality. Naturally, any of the above bought used would further drop the cost. The reality, in fact, is that the M8 allows one to work with fairly inexpensive lenses that out-perform most DSLR lenses, even those that cost a lot. The lens cost part of the equation equation can actually tip *towards* the M8 rather than away from it.

 

This is a topic I care very much about because I would like to see DRFs become more accessible to a wider range of photographers. As I've said in other posts, most of the best small format photographers of the 20th century were far from wealthy (again, with the exception of HCB). I started discussing these cost differences in articles last fall. Now that John is selling these adapters, the final needed piece is falling into place.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[jaapv]

I see I should elaborate.I have a problem with unmotivated "Leica equals too expensive" comments. I have no problem whatever with "Unfortunately too expensive for me". On the contrary, in those cases I am prone to sell some of my equipment below market price - I'm a soft touch.

[ken_tanaka]

It looks like Leica's marketing folks have been sprinkling evaluation M8s among photojournalists. Here's another "field review", referenced in a reply to Bruno Stephens' impromptu review.

[Jamie Roberts]

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{snipped}

As to comments about an M8 letting one get back to thinking about f stops and shutter speeds, working on one image at a time instead of ten. Maybe for some, I can't say. But when did the camera change this? I don''t think I've shot on auto exposure or program very much on any camera (not counting p&s models) more than a handful of times. All of the cameras I've owned have had a manual mode and I used it. You can put any camera on a tripod and take your time.

 

When it comes to cameras there is no one size fits all solution.

 

Alan, what you say is eminently reasonable, if the capture situations are equal, like in the studio.

 

But let's say you're a wedding photographer, where light is low and action is pretty fast. What will you really spend here?

 

If you're buying a 5d (a good choice just for the AF, IMO) and getting anything like the low-light capabilities of the M system (I mean that--the crop factor and the fast lenses are the key--not the ISO performance) you will spend more than most think on lenses.

 

Let's see for Canon here...

• wide, rectilinear, well-corrected prime? Hmmm. Not especially promising as Guy mentioned. Your only real choice from Canon there is the 16-35L 2.8 V2, which is still soft and actually not very well corrected... $1600 (I left off the 14mm 2,8 because it's just so soft)
  
• 35 1.4L -- need it for speed --$1120
  
• 50 1.2L -- need it for build, IQ and speed -- $1399
  
• 85 1.2L -- need it for speed, though the 1.8 might do $1759

So that's a pretty light kit, IMO, you still need a 70-200 IS IMO to do the job (and this is where the M8 falls down, actually)

 

But it's what? $2800 (edited--that's the new BH price) for the body, plus $5878 in lenses.

 

Total? $8678. Throw in an XTI for a couple hundred bucks more.

 

The M8 with CV or Zeiss lenses is perfectly comparible in cost, and they're easily the same quality as the Canon primes, and my choices here include some for the crop factor (you won't get quite as wide here as with the 16 on a 5d, but you'll get wider than any XTI ) :

• wide, rectilinear, well-corrected prime? Both CV 15, CV 21= $750 w/ adapters
  
• 28 1.9 --(equiv 37mm FOV) $525/ w adapter
  
• 35 1.2 -- (equiv 46mm FOV) need it for speed --$819
  
• 50 1.5 -- (equiv 66mm FOV) $339

Total in lenses? $2433. BH M8 body price? $4795.

 

Total M8 + CV lenses cost? $7228

 

That's over $1000 less than the 5d price, so you have plenty of room for filters and O rings

 

And it's just about the current body price for a 1ds2 alone ($7K)--no glass.

 

We didn't even factor in the value of used M glass (which, because it's so well made, is a much safer bet than used Canon AF gear).

 

And if you need to be covered on the high end, you can still buy an XTI and a 70-200 2.8L for another $2K or so. You could throw a consumer zoom in there too (it's a backup, right!)

 

So a good working pro 5d system with backup and an M8 system is completely comparible in terms of price.

 

As time and $$ permit, you can always add strategic Leica peices too--a 24MM Elmarit, or a 75 Lux (used of course) for some more reach.

 

So things aren't quite as elitist as people make them out. Having said that, for the consumer, $10k in equipment--from any manufacturer--is pretty other-wordly. But pros spend this all the time, whether they're keeping count or not

 

Oh--and let's be very clear about one big point here, that's important to even photographers like me...When AF fails, it really fails. There's nothing worse than trying to manually focus an AF lens in bad light on a 1ds2, let alone a Rebel.

 

Anyone who has tried it an missed shots knows exactly what I'm talking about. Both the M8 and DMR are joys to manually focus, and "in the dark" they're what I rely on.

[charlesphoto99]

Well, I'm a member of both forums and will step in here to defend the Lightstalkers crew, and will defend the M8 users over on the LS site.

 

Lets face it - the camera is bleeding expensive, esp with the price of lenses these days, both used and new. I was lucky enough to pick up a slew of used asph. lenses a few years back when the bottom had started to drop out of Leica. That makes the M8 much more affordable to me. That said, I'm out shooting with everything I own but the M8 because the fricking thing had to get sent off after two weeks! Yes, I've had just about every camera I've owned repaired at some point or another, but never the amount of problems (and added on costs - filters, coding, 2nd party adjustments of lenses, on and on) as the M8. Fine for commercial pros (and dentists, bankers and rock stars - hey just go buy that second body!) but a struggle for budding pjs who are trying to put together important stories on a budget. Lets see, a 50mm 1.4 for $400 or $3000? That's a lot of difference in plane tickets, fixers fees, etc. And the Canons/Nikons work. And are available used. And if you need a 300 f2.8 or a 14mm for the day it's usually easily rentable - try and rent a WATE. I like the size and portability of the M system - but I've also lugged two MF cameras around SE Asia for a month - whatever gets the job done.

 

There was a recent thread on LS about who uses Leicas - lots of users of the M6, M7 etc. It's a very viable system, and the M8 should be no different. Personally, once I get my replacement M8 I'm gonna have to think long and hard about hanging onto it though. The M7 does everything I need a Leica to do, and my D200 what I usually need digital to do. Part of it will hinge on whether Leica comes through with a 2nd problem free body for me.

 

That said, it is a great, almost revolutionary camera. The files are beautiful when it works (almost too much so, thereby necessitating even more $ for Alien Skin software). It's a joy to use (though I prefer the build/sound/framelines of the M7 better) and in this day and age of "green" its nice to cut out extra car trips to the lab and chemicals down the sink and still shoot with a classic.

 

Now if Rollei would only come out with a digital TLR.....

[AlanG]

I do think Alan you should try it and see if it works to some degree in your system ,not as primary but a good solution to some work be surprised how much you will like working with it

 

I'd love to try one. That's the problem. Maybe I'd like it too much...

 

Seriously, I used to shoot with a lot of camera gear - 3 4x5 cameras, two MF systems (Rollei & Linhof), 35mm and several specialized cameras (Nikonos, panoramic bodies, etc.) I used to try to have the "perfect" solution for each project. So in some ways, it has been very liberating for me to just use one system. This was not possible for me before. Other than my 35mm system and some p&s cameras, a 4x5 system is all that I have now and I rarely use it.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Alan if you like I could ask leica marketing to get a demo at your leica dealer through there sales rep to maybe demo one. I think this is very easy to get accomplished because there are demo units that the Leica sales force has for this. Let me know i can send Christian a e-mail and see if i can get this going. There very Pro oriented.

[hankg]

It's impossible to make generalizations about value when it comes to gear. Each photographers situation and preferences are different. Leica as a top of the line brand is expensive but so is all top of the line digital equipment.

 

If you told a pro photographer not to long ago that he would be paying $8,000 for a Canon 1 or $30,000 for a Hassy and that by the way, the cameras would be worthless when they reached the age of most of the gear he was still using, he would have laughed you out of the room. With advances in digital technology the pricing of DSLR's and backs may come down but the cost of lenses will probably skyrocket as they must be improved to meet the ever more stringent demands of higher resolution sensors.

 

If I had to I could shoot an ad with a $300. 50 year old TLR or a $800 prosumer DSLR with a used $150. 50mm prime and with proper handling get results in web offset print that would be competitive with any $10,000 or $30,000 piece of digital kit. So why would anyone spend the big bucks on a Nikon, Canon, Phase One, Leica, etc, etc, ... There are lots of reasons some practical, some emotional and they are different for every photographer.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Hank although I want a MF system and will get one down the road but i am actually saving money right now with the M8 , now that is a hoot. LOL

[sean_reid]

That said, I'm out shooting with everything I own but the M8 because the fricking thing had to get sent off after two weeks! Yes, I've had just about every camera I've owned repaired at some point or another, but never the amount of problems (and added on costs - filters, coding, 2nd party adjustments of lenses, on and on) as the M8. Fine for commercial pros (and dentists, bankers and rock stars - hey just go buy that second body!) but a struggle for budding pjs who are trying to put together important stories on a budget. Lets see, a 50mm 1.4 for $400 or $3000?

 

I think that the reliability comment is valid. The M8 needs to become more reliable and probably will. I work with rangefinder and EOS systems and the CV 50/1.5 Nokton is not only less than the Canon 50/1.4 but, in technical terms, is a better lens that's made of sturdier materials. When people think about system cost I think its important to look not only at the Leica lenses. The old myths about the Zeiss and CV lenses being second rate, putting a Ford engine in a Porsche....all that nonsense...they're fading in light of objective side by side comparisons.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[hankg]

Hank although I want a MF system and will get one down the road but i am actually saving money right now with the M8 , now that is a hoot. LOL

 

Well, not only am I interested in seeing what Canon has up there sleeve for the 1Ds III, the new owners at Leica have got me thinking that they are looking to shake things up with the new R. If they are determined to make Leica a player it would have to be something special. I would'nt mind trading the Viso for a 100/2.8 macro R and a 180/2.8 R if the R10 is a real step up.

[jaapv]

Sorry...but the reality is some will view the comment as elitist and will further reinforce in their minds what they dislike about Leica users.

 

I'm too old to be bothered by being disliked:p I like Leica owners:) Other photographers as well. Other people as well when it comes to that.

[stunsworth]

Buy a new M7, run it with film for say 12 months, then compare your total cost to that of an M8. Many of us would find that the M8 was the cheaper option.

[hankg]

Buy a new M7, run it with film for say 12 months, then compare your total cost to that of an M8. Many of us would find that the M8 was the cheaper option.

My film/lab costs were easy $15,000USD a year (when I was still shooting film) and that's peanuts compared to a lot of pros. But I didn't come from film to an M8 I came from a Canon 1Ds. I was already all digital.

[wparsonsgisnet]

About 6 years ago I went to a digital photog seminar at Zeff Photo in the Boston area. The presenter was using Kokak cameras with Nikon lenses and ran a photo business in the Albany area.

 

He said he saved $37,000 in film processing costs alone in his first year of digital operation. He also said that he installed a projector and as a result began selling lots of 16x20 prints. In addition, all the pix were viewed and he received his payments up front right then, with delivery 2 weeks down the road.

[pklein]

One thing for the amateur to consider is not just film and processing costs, but what . quality you get for those costs. And what your time is worth, and how much time you have..

 

I can get color neg film developed, printed and scanned at 6 megapixels for $10.00 per 36 exposure roll at Costco. A custom lab will do the same for B&W for about $25. BUT often (especially at Costco), the scanning is not quite adequate, the film gets scratched or splotched, the highlights get blown, etc.

 

When the scans are good, I can do Web-adequate stuff and print up to 5x7, and only rescan the best ones for bigger prints. But often I have to rescan myself even for Web and small prints. So I'm not saving as much time as I thought I might, and time is precious.

 

With my present lab work and shooting volume, I figured it would take about 7 years to break even on an M8. But if I factor in higher costs for a better lab, I will probably pay for it in 2-3 years. That's worth it. Particularly if I consider the scanning time I've eliminated.

 

(Gee, I've almost convinced myself. . .)

 

--Peter

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wparsonsgisnet]

Peter, it has been my experience that scans by photoprocessors are always mediocre. It appears that Costco does not yet hire people who walk on the negatives at most other outlets.

 

You didn't specify, but if you already have Leica lenses, you can't afford not to go this way. Time is not for sale.

 

If you still need help with your decision, go look at any of Guy's postings with photos.