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Has Leica missed the boat with the T??


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I have held back for some time in writing this as I realize it will be controversial. The following is my personal opinion and thus may differ from yours.

 

Background:

 

I was really hopeful that Leica was moving in a new direction where not only beautiful aesthetics but engineering excellence would be synonymous with Leica. The T appeared to be such a bold step employing a touch screen interface and sleek appearance.

 

In my opinion, Leica has made two mistakes which it continues to make over and over. The first of these is to consistently use an underpowered processor in every camera they make. While on could excuse it on a $600 camera it becomes much less palpable on a $2,000 camera (bodies only or bodies and fixed lenses). The second is to continuously raise its prices.

 

My opinion is based on:

 

the easy availability of all of Leica's cameras is an indication of lack of market interest. With new X cameras being readily available and T's which may be more costly to produce also being available. All variants of the M are readily available too. As any marketer knows there is a price point where perceived value and price are in equilibrium and the product sells robustly. I recently tried to sell my T here on this site and I tried to sell the lenses on other sites. In the case of the lenses, even after several price reductions there was not a single response. I have sold many other brands of cameras, Sony, Fuji, Olympus, etc. and they have always sold quickly. This tells me that buyers don't see the value at Leica's price points or even with an $800 reduction for the set.

 

Performance - Leica is establishing a reputation for slow performance and dated technology. While the older Sony sensor used in the T and the Xs is a very good sensor, it is not state of the art in 2014-15. The one area Leica excels at is lenses and processing the image to get a certain look but with an under powered processor (to save money one presumes), the rest of the camera's performance suffers. Slow start-up, slow to awake from sleep, slow switchover between LCD & EVF and slow AF. Yes, the recent firmware did help all of these facets, just not enough. It is still a slow camera by most measures. Even Steve Huff, in his latest review can no longer defend Leica's engineering choices and marketing B.S. that calls a lens a Sumilux that can't meet the standards of other Sumilux lenses such as a true 1.4 aperture. It isn't even a true 1.7 and that is true for the T's 23mm Sumicron not being a true f2.0 lens either.

 

Can you imagine the hugh & cry if one purchased an M Sumilux but could only get focus at f2.8 at less than 5 ft from the subject.

 

The T's lenses are good lenses but they are not great lenses and that is a failing at their price point.

 

The one advantage a small company has is its ability to innovate and move more quickly than a larger one and Leica has not down well here. they have repeatedly failed to build in an EVF into any camera other than the Pana-Leicas despite numerous requests on this forum and others.

 

Without attacking the messenger, I would love to hear where I am off in my observations and thinking. Please note, I did not say the image quality was bad because it is not. In good light it is very good but in low light, even moderately low light it is not up to the standards of many other cameras that cost far less.

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Hi there. I remember your comments also about the x-Vario mainly on its focus. I found its focus as good as most CDAF cameras (not the top ones) but the green light for no focus should be changed.

 

I think your comments on the sensor are misplaced. It's true that Sony has the new 24mp one but this is also the latest version of the 16.5. As I am sure you will note the latest M4/3s cameras are all 16mp and the much vaunted Fujis are also all 16mp, fuji sensors are in fact made by Sony or Toshiba just with a different bayer specification. One of the main reasons I gave up with Fuji.

 

The T sensor is the latest 16mp with no AA. It's terrific. Who knows why Leica did not use the 24mp. Perhaps Sony are not selling it to anyone except Nikon, perhaps Leica determined that the edge sharpness for those use adapted M lenses is better on the 16mp. Whatever, I realy think this is a non issue. I think the latest firmware has succeeded in speeding it up quite nicely and the fact the Fuji has also speeded up the original x-pro shows that it is as much software as CPU speed.

 

I have read many commentators say, surprisingly, that the T body is not overpriced but the lenses are. I tend to partially agree. The body, in terms of its handling, design, menu and build is great and not bad value at all. I like the external EVF, as I did on the RX1, as it gives you a choice about size. However the great feature of the T is the touch focus. This is so good IMHO that not to use it kind of takes away from the design of the camera. I only use the EVF for very steady, high sunlight or GPS. I find I can't really critise the body at all, except for that dreadful T-snap case design.

 

The lenses are interesting. Obviously Leica is assuming that this camera will be used mostly for zooms unlike the M which is prime. I myself am looking for a lightweight zoom camera as sharp as primes. The only three lightweight midrange zooms which are any good are the fuji 18-55mm, however I refuse to use xtrans, and the Panny 12-35mm and Oly 12-40mm, however I don't get on with M4/3s for a number of reasons.

 

The T mid range zoom is very good but I agree overpriced. For me a camera is sold by its lens range. M lenses sell the cameras, good that they are. The Zeiss 35mm and 55mm sell the A7 series and Fuji primes sell the X series. I would urge Leica to concentrate on some really outstanding primes now for the T series.

 

Lastly, remember that the day you walk out of a shop with a Nikon or Canon you are talking 50% of second hand recovery if you are lucky. Sometimes with a heavily in demand camera you can go slightly higher. Leica commands a higher premium but you have to be realistic. I saw a Leica T system and lenses go within a few days of advertisement from apertureUK as they were priced 20% below new, which is reasonable. I have seen ones priced 10% or less below new and they are not moving. I think this is hubris of owners, even new Ms loose 20% immediately. It's all supply and demand.

 

Lastly Leica were always criticised for not having enough stock, now they have solved that problem they are criticised again- oh well! I can find stock for every other camera system too!!!

Edited by colonel
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John -

 

"Available stock" is an interesting issue to bring up to support your opinion that Leica is pricing itself out of the market. However, that overlooks the huge efforts Leica has made to increase production all across their line, including the M series, which is available, but uncontestedly selling well.

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People who don´t see the advantages of a 45 minute hand polishing on a digital camera body, will never understand the T-system (me included). I´m sure Leica sells them like mad and just because of the new production resources they have them in stock. (Unlike with the M-system) reselling prices were never a strong point in the developers specification sheet and people may tend to buy this camera new because of it´s craftsmanships perfection (who wants a used body with "maybe" microscratches when it has been polished 45 minutes when new?).

 

The T is not about having the latest sensor, it´s about total reduction on the (what Leica thinks) "essential" and if customers don´t want a radical reduction, they are invited to buy very nice original Leica accessories like the wonderful Visoflex (a "must have", there is so much tradition in the name itself).

 

"Missed the boat"??? If one doesn´t understand the T-system, he´s probably a common Fujilympusony buyer ;)

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People who don´t see the advantages of a 45 minute hand polishing on a digital camera body, will never understand the T-system (me included). I´m sure Leica sells them like mad and just because of the new production resources they have them in stock. (Unlike with the M-system) reselling prices were never a strong point in the developers specification sheet and people may tend to buy this camera new because of it´s craftsmanships perfection (who wants a used body with "maybe" microscratches when it has been polished 45 minutes when new?).

 

The T is not about having the latest sensor, it´s about total reduction on the (what Leica thinks) "essential" and if customers don´t want a radical reduction, they are invited to buy very nice original Leica accessories like the wonderful Visoflex (a "must have", there is so much tradition in the name itself).

 

"Missed the boat"??? If one doesn´t understand the T-system, he´s probably a common Fujilympusony buyer ;)

 

Obviously you don't like the T system, however your reasons are the ones often trotted out by people against Leica in general, particularly ones that have never used the T.

 

I can give you 10s of reasons why I don't like the Fuji X-T1, but they are all to do with operation and raw files. The design is personal taste.

 

I think my point above was that build is just a component and its the handling and workflow which is unique and excellent. The look and feel is lovely - correct, - saying that users don't care about look and feel is odd.

It also just happens to produce amazing photographs, which I am sure should not be a consideration eh!

 

To repeat, the sensor is no less current then the latest Fuji and Olympus ones.

Edited by colonel
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The first of these is to consistently use an underpowered processor in every camera they make. While on could excuse it on a $600 camera it becomes much less palpable on a $2,000 camera (bodies only or bodies and fixed lenses).

 

I have to agree with you ..... and have pointed this out on every post I have made recently that touches on the subject .... and in my opinion it is responsible for the majority of glitches and problems with X, T and M series.

 

Leica 'allegedly' have industry leading (or at least comparative) performance with their Fujitsu produced replacement Maestro processor which will no doubt get shoehorned into the replacement M next year ..... but it still leaves the other cameras seriously underpowered and with more limited high ISO performance than the competitors. And as the M will almost certainly have AF compatability and a line of AF lenses they cannot afford to have anything less than industry leading AF speed and reliability on another flagship product.

 

Image quality, ergonomics, functions, lens optics are all fine ....... but as speed of use and low light performance are the only 'added value' items that most (Leica) users would really appreciate, without addressing these quickly and comprehensively Leica is sunk. They have been playing catch-up for years .... and it is about time they were out in front......

 

If the T and X range had A6000 AF speed and responsiveness and a couple of notches quality higher ISO performance the remaining issues would be minor niggles you could choose to live with.

 

Unfortunately the 'niche product' exclusive brand pricing is another matter altogether .....:rolleyes:

Edited by thighslapper
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John, Your feelings are probably influenced by the lack of speed before the last

firmware upgrade, which is unfortunate.

Every time I Take some pictures with the T, I think to myself , what a fine camera, the reality is, what is the purpose of the camera, are you a professional having to make a living with this camera ? most likely not, although a photographer could.

I did a complete food and layout for a modern style Napolitan pizzeria , mostly shot in the evening, restaurant lighting, no flash or additional lighting, the owners are delighted.

The evolution in cameras has advanced from film cameras having having the bare minimum f ,T and iso settings, to auto everything and every variation thereof.

Life(photo) is good.

On availability , I like Mercedes, have had 8 over the last 30 years, presently have 2,

the Mercedes car dealers have large numbers available , does that make it a bad car ?

John , set aside your initial feelings about the T , go out and have fun with the T and those fine lenses.

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Your points are all accurate, but its possible to take a different perspective.

 

I think its better to have stock on the shelves rather than long waiting lists, but at the same time I feel Leica has too many of its older cameras on the market ... which means they either have too much unsold inventory or too much factory capacity with nothing better to do than make the old cameras. Probably those new old X2's are going to be the most profitable for Leica as all the development and production costs are long since accounted for, just like the MM (which do not seem to be holding value either).

 

From the interviews during Fotokina I got the impression that the T camera and lens range is finished as far as Leica is concerned. Probably, given the funny market that camera is aimed at, that might be an accurate statement on my behalf.

 

So long that Leica is making money, I doubt very much that anything will change with their approach. So the next APS-C camera that Leica makes will probably have the same sensor as the last, and no EVF. There are plenty of other cameras with a newer sensor and an EVF ... for much less than half the price!

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M yexperience with the T is different from yours.

 

-the T lenses are very good in my experience better than many other midrange zooms

-the camera user interface is not the fasterst but its very simple and intuitive and in real life it does work pretty good, my em1 is faster but it is also more confusing

-the combination of lenses and sensor and Leica software leads to very good IQ, vibrant but still natural colors

Body and lenses feel very solid. you pay for this but I think one can not deny it.

 

its maybe not the best price-value-combo, but its a solid camera with a simple and intuitive user interface which can produce very good IQ.

A camera is more than the sum of its features.

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Obviously you don't like the T system, however your reasons are the ones often trotted out by people against Leica in general, particularly ones that have never used the T.

 

I can give you 10s of reasons why I don't like the Fuji X-T1, but they are all to do with operation and raw files. The design is personal taste.

 

I think my point above was that build is just a component and its the handling and workflow which is unique and excellent. The look and feel is lovely - correct, - saying that users don't care about look and feel is odd.

It also just happens to produce amazing photographs, which I am sure should not be a consideration eh!

 

To repeat, the sensor is no less current then the latest Fuji and Olympus ones.

 

Hmmm, some people (me included) just don´t understand the concept (as a camera) and those see it as a lifestyle/fashion item or "science fiction". You cannot compare it to an "old school" consumer system camera like a Fuji X-T1 which cost much less and isn´t by far so well polished like the Leica T is. The T is a UNIQUE camera, nobody was so radical in "less buttons are more" except GoPro maybe.

 

The user interface is so clean and logical that I wanted to check my e-mails and weather on the display (Leica, are you listening?).

 

Do I like the T-system? Well, I prefer a "classic" user interface with direct buttons and wheels, no touch screen, but that is MY problem. There are enough Fujis and Olympus cameras out there for us.

Let´s talk about this again in maybe ten years, maybe then there will be no other serious cameras than the Leica T-system (and it´s copies) which was way ahead in 2014.

I´m really curious about the developement of this so futuresque system and the day I will recognize it was the first of all who followed as copies.

Edited by Rona|d
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I feel Leica has too many of its older cameras on the market ... which means they either have too much unsold inventory or too much factory capacity with nothing better to do than make the old cameras

 

From the interviews during Fotokina I got the impression that the T camera and lens range is finished as far as Leica is concerned.

 

There are plenty of other cameras with a newer sensor and an EVF ... for much less than half the price!

 

It's nice for you to feel but what evidence do you have ? Perhaps they are selling well. Quote some numbers please

 

What do you mean by finished ?

 

I don't see any camera with the same interface, build, etc. as the T for half the price

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BarJohn, you noted your post was your personal opinion, which is consistent with your general view that Leica does not suit you or your needs. So it is a very predictable post. I find it a bit disingenuous for you to post a screed like that full of personal opinion on how Leica is missing the ball and then to say "don't shoot the messenger".

 

Suffice to say I do not agree with you. The T is far from perfect but in my 50 years plus of using cameras I have yet to find one or own one without some downsides and things the manufacturer could have done better.

 

I have a T and find it vastly easier to use than any of the Sony or even Olys that I have tried. In my book (yours may differ) image quality is the most important issue. I don't much care about having the fastest processor because I don't machine gun. The touch interface works really well, especially after you customize the screeens. Once the camera is set up (for me) the T is easy to use, fun to use, and produces really good images. Is it for everyone? No.

 

On availability of inventory, there was indeed a hue and cry when Leica could not deliver M240s, and I waited almost a year for an APO Summicron 50. So if they cannot produce cameras fast enough they get criticized, and when cameras are in stock, there must be something wrong? You can walk into a store and buy a top end Nikon. Does that mean Nikon is failing?

 

So here is my question for you. If Leica just consistently misses the ball, as you opine, why do you even bother? It can't be solely to be able to make posts like this one. Leica is obviously not the company that produces cameras that suit you and you think they just cannot succeed in ever making one you like. Why not look to Fuji or Sony or Oly or somebody else and stop punishing yourself?

Edited by WeinschelA
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It's nice for you to feel but what evidence do you have ? Perhaps they are selling well. Quote some numbers please

 

What do you mean by finished ?

 

I don't see any camera with the same interface, build, etc. as the T for half the price

 

I gave my opinion and for that I don't need evidence or numbers :D The way Leica operates its probably profitable to continue the X2 at even very low volumes ... and it gives them something to put on the shelves at all the boutiques that people can almost afford, as opposed to cameras they definitely cannot afford!

 

Finished as in complete. This quote was from an interview by Luminous Landscape and was roughly (from the CEO) "with the two new zoom lenses the lens lineup for the T is complete.". Perhaps they make some more, I sure hope so, but at the same time I think polishing a camera by hand for 45 minutes is a waste of time. A classic X body which takes the lenses makes more sense to me.

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Hi John,

you write about technical data. It seems to be right. But technical values do not matter.

 

Let's have a look at the M240 I use:

1. Technical ISO values are low compared to others but the sensor is totally different and it allows me to take photos like M6. Fast for available light. I normally use bad light situations.

2. The speed is ok for me because I am not a sports photographer. But is right for good portraits with bad light.

3. I made some test with my Ricoh GXR combined with Leica lens M 90mm and won against an EOS7 with standard lens (it is easy to win).

4. A semipro Nikon photographer saw my pics with the M240 and said "I always had the wrong camera".

5. Some say the automatic program in the M240 is makes pics always too light. The pics look bad on the display but when you correct it a little bit you have more power than others. At the end my last pics from wood looked like HDR with little correction. I know what other guys have to change afterwards especially the color. With my Leica I only correct white and lights and never the color.

 

Maybe this can be transferred to the T.

 

There is a reason why companies like Bose do not mention the Watt measure for speakers anymore: It does not really matter.

rgds

hgl

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Finished as in complete. This quote was from an interview by Luminous Landscape and was roughly (from the CEO) "with the two new zoom lenses the lens lineup for the T is complete.". Perhaps they make some more, I sure hope so, but at the same time I think polishing a camera by hand for 45 minutes is a waste of time. A classic X body which takes the lenses makes more sense to me.

 

You should probably be a bit careful about 'roughly' quoting something quite as apocalyptic as that. Added to which, you are defining 'complete' as 'finished' but that isn't quite what it means.

 

Certainly the new zooms give a complete zoom range from 18-200mm equivalent, That hardly precludes making new lenses.

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The one advantage a small company has is its ability to innovate and move more quickly than a larger one and Leica has not down well here. they have repeatedly failed to build in an EVF into any camera other than the Pana-Leicas despite numerous requests on this forum and others.

 

.

 

HI There John

Sorry you're unhappy with the camera, but not at all surprised (to be honest I'm surprised that you lasted this long).

 

Whilst small companies can move quickly in some respects, duplicating development others have already done (fast processors, image stabilisation etc.) is always going to be too expensive and very time consuming . . . so you have to license technologies, and this is not quick.

 

With respect to the sensor - I think it's pretty much agreed that this is the best sensor for use with M lenses - and that the 24mp sensors are much less effective

 

If you can make a 30" print with 24mp, then you can make a 25" print with a 16mp sensor - this is hardly the difference between acceptable and not.

 

Worth mentioning that my T has been languishing unused since the X and the V-lux arrived in early August and s Sony A7s a week or so ago . . . today I picked it up again, and found it a real simple joy to use, and the images it produces are great. Sure - I agree it could do with a faster processor; and whilst we're about it I'd like InBodyImageStabilisation too. Weather sealing would be good as well.

 

But I like it, and I'm pretty certain of 2 things:

 

1. future firmware upgrades will make it better

2. it's been successful enough to ensure it's future as the 4th new camera system from Leica i the last 60 years

 

all the best

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You should probably be a bit careful about 'roughly' quoting something quite as apocalyptic as that. Added to which, you are defining 'complete' as 'finished' but that isn't quite what it means.

 

Certainly the new zooms give a complete zoom range from 18-200mm equivalent, That hardly precludes making new lenses.

 

"... so that completes the range of Leica T lenses ..."

 

Leica Interview Photokina 2014 on Vimeo at 10:02

 

They could make more, if they made a super zoom I would buy the camera. But I'm not going to wait for that to happen :cool:

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Hi John,

 

I get it that you're disappointed, and this camera maybe isn't what you want. I think that happens to all of us from time to time.

 

The camera is what it is, and I have spent more time trying to understand what it does well. I seem to have a problem getting sharp images using AF (on the Leica, the Sony A7 and my D800E). I have come to the conclusion it is user error - I love the images I get using M lenses with this camera, and I am well along the route to understanding its strengths and weaknesses (for me).

 

I don't stress over what it isn't.

 

Good luck with your future choices, and don't fret over the Leica T - it doesn't seem to work for you.

 

Best

John

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Finished as in complete. This quote was from an interview by Luminous Landscape and was roughly (from the CEO) "with the two new zoom lenses the lens lineup for the T is complete."

Actually it is far from complete. The first phase is, but the system will continue to grow over the years, probably by adding some fast primes, for example. I would not expect Leica to diversify in the way that Fuji did, i.e. by introducing an X-E1, X-M1, and X-A1 shortly after the X-Pro1 so customers had a choice among differently featured (and priced) bodies. Rather the next T body will take a while to be released and when it is it will replace the current one (which might survive as a T-E but I’m not sure about that).

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