CalArts 99 Posted October 13, 2014 Share #61 Posted October 13, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) And what exactly can $250K get them? How much more is needed and when? Aren't there salaries, overhead, production, packaging and marketing costs? Can their E6 film compete with Fuji's? Are they planning on expanding or dividing the market? You might want to do a bit of your own research about Ferrania's long term business plan (which has been developed for several years now including funding by the Italian government), and what specifically this particular Kickstarter campaign was all about before you come in with your usual negativity about film and film use...... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 13, 2014 Posted October 13, 2014 Hi CalArts 99, Take a look here Ferrania - moving mass production machinery. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
xalo Posted October 13, 2014 Share #62 Posted October 13, 2014 A bit late in the game, but I just backed this project, too. Thanks for bringing it up around here! Curious to receive and try the slide(!) film. I guess this is what amazes me most after all the disappearances of the recent years. Bold move, smart as well, since I can see those already going like hot cake: for cross-processing, but not only. Given Fuji's prices, it shouldn't be to hard. Meanwhile I'll try to do my share for keeping the local E6 lines busy... Cheers, Alexander Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted October 13, 2014 Share #63 Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) The film has a look I characterize as the outcome of a photographer and publisher who accept the lowest common denominator: a good old Sixties rag thing which is cool - if that is what you intend. OTOH, if you do it without knowledge and intention then you're living on automatic. Nothing within the scope of art to warrant attention. Edited October 13, 2014 by pico Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 14, 2014 Share #64 Posted October 14, 2014 You might want to do a bit of your own research about Ferrania's long term business plan (which has been developed for several years now including funding by the Italian government), and what specifically this particular Kickstarter campaign was all about before you come in with your usual negativity about film and film use...... I just asked the question... what do they want to accomplish with $250K, and what is their overall business plan? If you know that, please answer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted October 14, 2014 Share #65 Posted October 14, 2014 I just asked the question... what do they want to accomplish with $250K, and what is their overall business plan? If you know that, please answer. "What do they want to accomplish with $250K, and what is their overall business plan?" You could have simply said it that way in the first place. And don't be coy, let's be honest here; you didn't 'just ask the question,' it was an obviously loaded version. You've made it abundantly clear so many, many times in the past (and in a film forum!) that using film is futile these days, so why you would sincerely want to know what's happening with Film Ferrania except for the pleasure of picking apart their business plan. But if you're truly interested then spend some time and Google it. In addition, it's spelled out on the Kickstarter website that was posted here (and there's even a video for the reading impaired.) 8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted October 14, 2014 Share #66 Posted October 14, 2014 In any case, a day has gone by... and yet another $10K has been added to the pot (by all those misguided film users...) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 14, 2014 Share #67 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) But if you're truly interested then spend some time and Google it. In addition, it's spelled out on the Kickstarter website that was posted here (and there's even a video for the reading impaired.) I'm only interested enough to see if anyone here can give me a short answer. I can't recall too many avid film shooters recently expressing a longing to use Farrania E6 film. But maybe the film will be so special or so inexpensive it will be adopted by people who otherwise would only be able to choose Fuji E6 film. I have no idea if there will be demand for this product since I'm not sure what role it might fill. Edited October 14, 2014 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsgary Posted October 14, 2014 Share #68 Posted October 14, 2014 I'm only interested enough to see if anyone here can give me a short answer. I can't recall too many avid film shooters recently expressing a longing to use Farrania E6 film. But maybe the film will be so special or so inexpensive it will be adopted by people who otherwise would only be able to choose Fuji E6 film. I have no idea if there will be demand for this product since I'm not sure what role it might fill. They won't be just making E6 film Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 14, 2014 Share #69 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) They won't be just making E6 film So? Same argument. What will make one choose their film over others. Is there room for 2 players in the E6 market? How many in the 400 ISO b/w market or the 100 ISO C41 market? Kodak got out of the E6 and Kodachrome markets altogether and dropped many b/w and color neg film types for some reason. Kodak and some others could not downsize their equipment profitably if at all and can now only produce a narrower range of products. If Ferrania can resize their facilities for smaller volume, it is hard for me to see how this will be efficient enough to compete against products that are made in higher volumes. However even if this is successful is there any evidence it will expand the film market? Or is the idea that smaller scale facilities will help guarantee the supply of film in a steadily declining market once it is no longer feasible for Kodak and Fuji to run their large coating machines? Edited October 14, 2014 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsgary Posted October 14, 2014 Share #70 Posted October 14, 2014 It's great news to have another source for film Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted October 14, 2014 Share #71 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Or is the idea that smaller scale facilities will help guarantee the supply of film in a steadily declining market once it is no longer feasible for Kodak and Fuji to run their large coating machines? Who knows? Once upon a time a cowboy saw a cloud of dust in the distance and five minutes later a Model T Ford came by, and the dream of running a car was born in that mans mind. And yet fifty years later yet as he drove along a paved highway in his latest Ford (he went for a Thunderbird this time) the fields still had horses in them, and although fewer in number people still rode them. The decline in film use has happened, it's been and gone. What is left is a healthy market demand for both traditional films and new products. Think of this logically. There is nobody left (OK a very tiny fraction) to jump from film to digital, they've either done it, or are too young to have ever owned a film camera. So that leaves modern people (young and old) who aren't living in the past and want to use film because they feel it is a valid choice, and this is especially reinforced as the peer pressure to 'upgrade' to digital doesn't apply any more. There is no longer a legacy of being behind the times, even in camera clubs where peer pressures are greater. So after a brief hiatus film now has its own voice again, not shared with digital in terms of resolution or 'image quality'. The transition period of film to digital is over. The ultimate irony for digital users wedded to their Leica M or Sony, etc. is that market is itself having a massive shakeout with the rise of the iPhone. While you are claiming film is dead look around you at the last hurrah of large segments of the digital camera industry. Steve Edited October 14, 2014 by 250swb 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsgary Posted October 14, 2014 Share #72 Posted October 14, 2014 So? Same argument. What will make one choose their film over others. Is there room for 2 players in the E6 market? How many in the 400 ISO b/w market or the 100 ISO C41 market? Kodak got out of the E6 and Kodachrome markets altogether and dropped many b/w and color neg film types for some reason. Kodak and some others could not downsize their equipment profitably if at all and can now only produce a narrower range of products. If Ferrania can resize their facilities for smaller volume, it is hard for me to see how this will be efficient enough to compete against products that are made in higher volumes. However even if this is successful is there any evidence it will expand the film market? Or is the idea that smaller scale facilities will help guarantee the supply of film in a steadily declining market once it is no longer feasible for Kodak and Fuji to run their large coating machines? What country do you live in because film use in the UK is on the up 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted October 14, 2014 Share #73 Posted October 14, 2014 ...film in a steadily declining market once it is no longer feasible for Kodak and Fuji to run their large coating machines? Alan - you do realize that no-one really listens to your anti-film litanies any longer? It's just all the same, superficially reasonable, insidious negativity masquerading (very thinly) as disinterested curiosity. I know this will lead to heart-felt protestations of a sincere interest in film's well-being; then you'll be decrying my 'personal attacks'. But (sadly) we've read the exact same thing from you for several years - even the same injured protests as a follow-up, when other responses question your good faith. And when it suits you to do some research, I can be simply astounded at the effort and meticulousness with which you beaver away at gathering 'facts', articles and statistics to 'prove' yet again that film is dead. In all honesty, given the speed with which Ferrania could fund their Kickstarter, I thought you might lie low on this one. Anyway if it's any consolation, I'm sure you're not alone in wishing this project had totally flopped. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeswe Posted October 14, 2014 Share #74 Posted October 14, 2014 And what exactly can $250K get them? How much more is needed and when? Aren't there salaries, overhead, production, packaging and marketing costs? Can their E6 film compete with Fuji's? Are they planning on expanding or dividing the market? Instead of expecting us to repeat their whole business plan here, why don't you just go to their website or their kickstarter page and read and see for yourself? The relevant information is all presented there in the form of text and some neat videos. And after you done that, maybe we can have an eduacted discussion here ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted October 14, 2014 Share #75 Posted October 14, 2014 So far oversubscribed by $13000 with 15 days still to go. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsgary Posted October 14, 2014 Share #76 Posted October 14, 2014 So far oversubscribed by $13000 with 15 days still to go. Steve that sould tell him something but he's maybe to thick Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattMaber Posted October 14, 2014 Share #77 Posted October 14, 2014 I'm only interested enough to see if anyone here can give me a short answer. If you've got a short answer to the origin of life, Id be interested too. Just bullet points mind, I haven't got time for the full story. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 14, 2014 Share #78 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Instead of expecting us to repeat their whole business plan here, why don't you just go to their website or their kickstarter page and read and see for yourself? The relevant information is all presented there in the form of text and some neat videos. And after you done that, maybe we can have an educated discussion here ... Ok I read it all. Since you won't summarize, I will. I saw no financial business plan there. A lot of photos and discussion about the machinery... . e.g. finding perforating machines. 8 people are profiled several with their film manufacturing experience. Nothing about sales projections, marketing or how the Euros and Cents will play out. I'm just looking at this as a business proposal before sending them my money. They say that 75% of the $250K is needed to make their first batch of film on their research coating line and move some larger equipment. Did you see how large that stuff is? I saw nothing about the total projected cost of setting up the larger facility and getting it going tested and stable. They want to make the base, the chemicals and the film. Pretty big goals. They have newish laws to deal with regarding chemicals that may no longer be allowed for their film production. As I said in my previous post, maybe their plan is to build for a limited scale in order to be the last man standing should larger operations no longer be profitable. If so perhaps they could explain that theory since they seem to be saying their goal is to assure the survival of film for the next 100 years. Btw Plastic man et al if you don't like my posts either ignore them or respond to their content instead of what motives you read into them. I don't have any interest in fighting with anyone or dealing with your biases toward me. - quickly using a smart phone so I went back to edit a lot of typos, etc. Edited October 14, 2014 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted October 14, 2014 Share #79 Posted October 14, 2014 Alan - the reason people are responding the way they do is because - based on your long history of posts on the film subsection of this forum - we no longer believe you're in good faith when you ask questions like this. The end result is a foregone conclusion. Moreover, your sole intention appears consistently to be to discourage and undermine, and you go about this task with incredible persistence and dedication. The reason I don't want to ignore your posts is because others, who may think you are an impartial or disinterested observer, may actually be deterred from contributing to Kickstarter projects like this, or even trying film in the first place, because of your persistent and tireless reiteration that using film is futile and the medium is dead. Anyway, the Kickstarter is powering on beyond the original target. I'm guessing it's going to continue to do so, in spite of the lack of a 'financial plan' that satisfies your requirements. I assume that's all you need to know and you won't be backing the project. Thanks for your contribution to the thread PS: I see you've edited your post while I was writing this response, and made it sound more conciliatory. My bad for not pressing the quote button directly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 14, 2014 Share #80 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) This link from the FilmFerrania site gives some idea of what challenges there will be in getting this equipment ready and running. I don't see an explanation of how it can be scaled down and I'm not sure if selected pieces of the operation can afford-ably be moved to a smaller facility. This is from early 2014 Wittner Cinetec - Visiting FilmFerrania in Italy 2014 There were two blog posts and some interviews from 2013, info about the old Scotch film company and products, links to other sites that picked up their press releases... that's it. If I missed something relevant, please show me. ------------------------------ "With all of this, we still have an enormous task ahead of us. We aim for nothing less than fundamentally changing the way you buy, use and process film today. Most importantly, we aim to restore confidence in the future of analog film." ___________________ I can't see how they can change how we buy, use, and process film. If they succeed as a business they will add some confidence for the future of film. Before investing, I simply would like to know, where is Film Ferrania projected to be in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years? Edited October 14, 2014 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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