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ADOX CMS 20


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4 hours ago, 250swb said:

Yes there are things that are essential to success, and I'm talking about CMS20 here. The first is the ISO rating, it should be in the region of 6 ISO, definitely not 20 ISO. It should be processed in a suitable developer, I previously favoured 510 Pyro but more recently the Adotech IV developer has overtaken this for ultimate quality. Temperature should start out at 23c but then can naturally drop over the processing period (maybe 10 to 12 minutes) unless the drop would be rapid. And then the agitation should be a single gentle swirl and a tilt in the tank once a minute and not an inversion or anything constant or violent. And the last thing is that fixing the film for anything over 1 minute (I fix for 45 seconds) will start to bleach the negative, which brings us back to the myth of high contrast, everything up to that point can be done correctly but then people think fixing the negative is just the usual routine and it isn't.

For ISO rating, are you recommending to expose or process the film at 6 ISO?

Presumably, you just follow the instructions for developing with Adotech IV?  Why would you not just expose at ISO 20 (the packet rating) and then follow the instructions for development - http://www.adox.de/Technical_Informations/CMS20_ADOTECHII_instructions.pdf (albeit that it is now Adotech IV).

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6 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

For ISO rating, are you recommending to expose or process the film at 6 ISO?

Presumably, you just follow the instructions for developing with Adotech IV?  Why would you not just expose at ISO 20 (the packet rating) and then follow the instructions for development - http://www.adox.de/Technical_Informations/CMS20_ADOTECHII_instructions.pdf (albeit that it is now Adotech IV).

I think with the advent of Adox CMS II and Adotech IV there has been an about face regarding how to use it.

https://www.fotoimpex.com/shop/images/products/media/30945_5_PDF-Datasheet.pdf

The film gains in contrast when exposed at the higher ISO, and as you can see from the development chart 'normal' contrast when processed in Adotech IV is achieved between 3 ISO and the 20 ISO box speed, but exposing at 20 ISO is 'normal high contrast', 'normal medium or low contrast' is achieved by exposing it between the 3 ISO and 12 ISO range. Which ISO speed you choose can depend on the light or how you tend to meter, but I have landed on 6 ISO because there is a lot of latitude in the film at that speed and covers going out in different light. For development just follow the instructions with the Adotech.

There is some contradiction when one set of instructions overlap a later set and clarity is lost in translation, but in the latest .pdf they stress that CMS20 II and Adotech IV are a closed system and they don't recommend any other developers. Adox previously said you could process CMS20 (not II) in any fine grain developer at box speed, but a similar thing regarding ISO was obvious from the experience of users, the higher the ISO the more contrast there was in the image. When CMS20 was available in 120 I rated it at 3 ISO and processed in 510 Pyro, looking back I think it should have been 6 ISO but the 120 machine broke down and no more was available. I do have some 510 Pyro and I intend to see how much a closed system it really is by trying it with CMS20 II, but the commonality between CMS20 and CMS20 II is that normal contrast is in the lower ISO range when paired with an appropriate developer. 

 

 

Edited by 250swb
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10 hours ago, Ornello said:

See this post! You posted it! This is perfectly consistent with my advice.

No, you are now quoting from something written in 2014 when CMS II and Adotech IV were not available. Adox since then have rightly abandoned previously contradictory advice about box speed, their own developer, and using other developers and declared the new film and developer as a closed system. Of course experienced photographers will experiment but maybe only for effect, there isn't any need to get finer grain or control the tonal range other than with the tools currently available. 

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48 minutes ago, stray cat said:

Steve, when you say Adox's 120 machine broke down - do you know if they are able to/going to fix it or will they stop production of 120 film altogether? 😬

It appears there are stocks of the older CMS20 available but there is a news piece on the Adox web site saying the repaired machine should be running again by January 2022. I can't wait. I remember it breaking down before so maybe it's needed a full CLA for a long time. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

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Hi there, 
from my own experience I can tell that the CMS20II wasn't the right film stock for me when I started shooting film some years before. I was tempted by the bold claims made by Adox and did try it at ISO 20. But I didn't use the recommended Adotech developer and tried to develop it in Rodinal 1:100 semi stand method .. because ... why not? The results were very contrasty and beside very few nice ones not really usable. So I abandoned this film stock for some years.

When I became more familiar with film development and darkroom printing, I made another attempt by sticking to kinda normal contrast exposure at ISO12 and the Adotech IV developer with recommended time+agitation. And it hit me pretty hefty. This time the results were just amazing and CMS20II became my favorite B&W film stock for landscape and "special occasions". The resolution by far exceeds, what my cameras and lenses as system can achieve. Not even mentioned the capabilities of available film scanners. In the darkroom, it prints very nicely and it is a joy to experience the enormous latitude and highlight retention.

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For even better tonality I rate it ISO6-ISO12 now, depending on the contrast of the scene itself. Sunny conditions ->ISO6 to very flat light ->ISO12.

These speed ratings does sound very, very slow and indeed they are. But on a normal cloudy day 1/60th to 1/125th of a second at f/5.6 to f/4 apertures are normal, The sweet spot of many lenses ;) and quite doable handheld if you're carefully. Of course for longer lenses a tripod is mandatory for many scenes.

This is a film stock, that's definitely worth trying several times.

 

 

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@250swb

You said, you used 510 Pyro for the old CMS20 and got decent results. Did you try 510 Pyro also for the CMS20II already?

I do use this developer for Delta100/400 + Fomapan100/200 and are quite happy with what I get from this. Only for CMS20II I use the AdotechIV as every source I read does not recommend 510Pyro for this film stock. So I didn't try it for myself yet. But... if you say it works proper I'd give it a try :)

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17 minutes ago, chacker said:

@250swb

You said, you used 510 Pyro for the old CMS20 and got decent results. Did you try 510 Pyro also for the CMS20II already?

I do use this developer for Delta100/400 + Fomapan100/200 and are quite happy with what I get from this. Only for CMS20II I use the AdotechIV as every source I read does not recommend 510Pyro for this film stock. So I didn't try it for myself yet. But... if you say it works proper I'd give it a try :)

The answer is 'not yet'. I have a new bottle of 510 Pyro and fully intend to compare this with the Adotech developer. At the moment it's hard to think of there being a better developer than Adotech, but perhaps 510 Pyro can offer an alternative, my mind is open to success, failure, or something in-between. 510 Pyro and a semi stand regime can deal with very tricky films or exposures, but the proviso is that I've only every used it with medium format or large format, not 35mm where perceptions about tonality, grain and sharpness can change. But 510 Pyro and the old CMS20 was the way to go a few years ago, quite a few large format photographers used it. If you try it before me post back here and let us know!

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Very impressive, I’m certainly going to try this film. Just a tip: I couldn’t finish the videos because the apple iphone-wise zooming in and out and moving over photo’s is quite disturbing, also because it’s going too fast.  These images stand out for their tonal scales and sharpness; incredibile how sharp they are at infinity. Mostly you get some blur at infinity probably caused by humidity in the air. It’s as if this film penetrates through this humidity, really excellent. These photo’s deserve it however to be viewed as photo’s, not as videoshots. 

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@otto.f 
Thanks for the feedback :)  I do refine my videography skills more and more and the more recent videos are less distracting now.
As for the photos itself - Some of the more interesting ones (for me) I did print in the darkroom already and put them on my walls in a nice frame. I tend to change my framed photos on the walls every now and then. This way I have a reason to do some darkroom work and the photos do not just suffer a poor digital life on hard drives.  

@Ornello
No, unfortunately not. Instead I saw some trolls, crazy super jeeps, volcanoes and the mayor of Reykjavik when he left the town hall after work 🤣

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With a 'medium format' approach (ie, thinking a bit about metering and using a tripod and remote release, CMS 20ii can reward you with almost medium format quality images. I find it very consistent with Adotech iv.  I also have a bottle of Pyro 510 waiting to try with it, but Adotech iv is so easy to use that it's tempting to standardise with it for straightforward repeatability on 35mm.

I hope Adox have managed to repair the coater, I previously had mixed results with 120 CMS 20 on 6x17 but I'm impressed with 35mm CMS 20ii in Adotech iv 

Callanish Standing Stones, Isle of Lewis.

Leica MP

35mm summicron asph v1

iso 6

 

 

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@Ouroboros  "almost medium format like" ... If handled proper,  35mm results are nor just almost I'd say. Compared to my MF black and white work, I can't see less image quality. Of course, one needs also to use a good lens+camera combination as well as your suggested approach. I'd really like to try the CMS20II in 6x6 or 6x9 though.

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@chacker, lovely images.  One thing occurs to me is that you seem to lose a lot of drama in the sky.  There is detail there which could add to what you’re already getting with rocks, ice and water.  Have you considered using filters?

@Ouroboros, love your work, Steve.  I have CMS 20ii in the freezer, and can’t wait to try it.  I’m holding back for the moment, as I’m re-thinking my film photography.  I have an M-A (historically with Tri-X) and an SWC (usually with 50 Velvia) and I’m reconsidering how I use them, and what for.  A sort of back to fundamentals approach, as I seem to have lost my way … it’s about light and what we photograph, right?

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@IkarusJohn Thanks John :) As for the sky: Yes you're right. Luckily this film does keep the highlight very good, so a good amount of burning does reveal the drama in the sky/clouds to some extend. Due to it's orthochromatic nature, CMS20II does not register red colors in a proper amount that the use of a red oder orange filter would make a lot of sense... beside acting like some kind of a weird ND filter. Never tried it though 🤔 Good idea John! Will make some tests to verify my thoughts.

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