Depth of Field Scale - Firmware?

[pilot-kurt]

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I wonder if anyone else is experiencing what I believe are firmware issues:

 

1) I have my camera set to Aperture Priority and Manual Focus for the purpose of zone focusing. I'm using the 23mm Summicron-T lens, my dials are set to EV and F, and firmware is version 1.1. At f/16, the display shows a wide red bar on the distance scale indicating large depth-of-field as expected. If I turn the camera off then back on, the red bar changes to very narrow (as if f/2) even though it's still f/16. I try adjusting manual focus and the bar stays narrow. The only way to fix this is to change the f/stop, then the red bar suddenly adjusts accordingly. There are times when I want to adjust focus, referring to DOF scale without changing f/stop.

 

2) Another related issue is when manually focusing. While the display is showing manual focus, I can not change either the f/stop or EV (my dial settings) until after the display returns to normal, or half-pressing the shutter button (which also returns display to normal).

 

3) Unrelated to DOF, sometimes I disable the right toolbar by swiping down and making the icons dim to prevent accidentally pressing something. If I turn the camera off then back on, the toolbar changes back to normal and sure enough--I accidentally press something, even though I thought it was locked.

 

Anyone else have these issues? Does Leica have any official place for feedback or reporting firmware problems?

[Joe Lazio]

I wonder if anyone else is experiencing what I believe are firmware issues:

 

1) I have my camera set to Aperture Priority and Manual Focus for the purpose of zone focusing. I'm using the 23mm Summicron-T lens, my dials are set to EV and F, and firmware is version 1.1. At f/16, the display shows a wide red bar on the distance scale indicating large depth-of-field as expected. If I turn the camera off then back on, the red bar changes to very narrow (as if f/2) even though it's still f/16. I try adjusting manual focus and the bar stays narrow. The only way to fix this is to change the f/stop, then the red bar suddenly adjusts accordingly. There are times when I want to adjust focus, referring to DOF scale without changing f/stop.

 

The Leica T, has that issue and all you will find touring this Forum. It is important to express our dissatisfaction to Leica because their policy seems to be the silent and not solve anything. The Leica T for anyone who understands something about photography, in the current version is a camera fraught with problems that never should be offered for sale until they were not solved.- Best Regards

 

2) Another related issue is when manually focusing. While the display is showing manual focus, I can not change either the f/stop or EV (my dial settings) until after the display returns to normal, or half-pressing the shutter button (which also returns display to normal).

 

3) Unrelated to DOF, sometimes I disable the right toolbar by swiping down and making the icons dim to prevent accidentally pressing something. If I turn the camera off then back on, the toolbar changes back to normal and sure enough--I accidentally press something, even though I thought it was locked.

 

Anyone else have these issues? Does Leica have any official place for feedback or reporting firmware problems?

 

The Leica T, has that issue and all you will find touring this Forum. It is important to express our dissatisfaction to Leica because their policy seems to be the silent and not solve anything. The Leica T for anyone who understands something about photography, in its current version is a camera fraught with problems that never should be offered for sale until they were not solved.-Best Regards

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[Guest badbob]

The Leica T, has that issue and all you will find touring this Forum. It is important to express our dissatisfaction to Leica because their policy seems to be the silent and not solve anything. The Leica T for anyone who understands something about photography, in its current version is a camera fraught with problems that never should be offered for sale until they were not solved.-Best Regards

 

I'm glad they did have it for sale, even though I've had to do a few workarounds. But, I've got lots of apps on my phone and ipad, and several O/S's on my computers, and they're all full of bugs. And just to even see those bugs I have to beg AT&T to make my Internet work (down 4 days so far in a major metro area). So the 'T' is well above most other such software-related apps and gadgets I have, and since the 'T' is not a 'pro' camera, I don't require a strict level of performance.

[thighslapper]

I wonder if anyone else is experiencing what I believe are firmware issues:

 

1) I have my camera set to Aperture Priority and Manual Focus for the purpose of zone focusing. I'm using the 23mm Summicron-T lens, my dials are set to EV and F, and firmware is version 1.1. At f/16, the display shows a wide red bar on the distance scale indicating large depth-of-field as expected. If I turn the camera off then back on, the red bar changes to very narrow (as if f/2) even though it's still f/16. I try adjusting manual focus and the bar stays narrow. The only way to fix this is to change the f/stop, then the red bar suddenly adjusts accordingly. There are times when I want to adjust focus, referring to DOF scale without changing f/stop.

 

2) Another related issue is when manually focusing. While the display is showing manual focus, I can not change either the f/stop or EV (my dial settings) until after the display returns to normal, or half-pressing the shutter button (which also returns display to normal).

 

3) Unrelated to DOF, sometimes I disable the right toolbar by swiping down and making the icons dim to prevent accidentally pressing something. If I turn the camera off then back on, the toolbar changes back to normal and sure enough--I accidentally press something, even though I thought it was locked.

 

Anyone else have these issues? Does Leica have any official place for feedback or reporting firmware problems?

 

These are just the sort of hard to find bugs that Leica wants to hear about ...... email them !

 

They cannot use the camera in every variation that is possible...... so some of these things will slip through. 99+% of us will not be using the camera in the way you are .... so I doubt if anyone else has noticed these glitches.

[pilot-kurt]

These are just the sort of hard to find bugs that Leica wants to hear about ...... email them !

 

They cannot use the camera in every variation that is possible...... so some of these things will slip through. 99+% of us will not be using the camera in the way you are .... so I doubt if anyone else has noticed these glitches.

 

The intent of my original post was merely to find out if the DOF issue was unique to my camera, or a "bug" in firmware v1.1. I hoped others would check their cameras to verify--I was a little surprised that 2 weeks went by without a single response. I certainly did not intend to bash Leica or stir up emotions. I'm fluent in several programming languages, so I'm well aware of software development and debugging. The Leica T's user-interface is far more advanced (and revolutionary) than any other Leica, so the fact that there are some initial "bugs" does not concern me. They were to be expected. However, Leica should be aggressive in updating the firmware. It's not unreasonable to expect this considering the upscale price and Leica's brand image.

 

My first Leica T locked up frequently (unresponsive LCD) and the click wheels were intermittent. My dealer exchanged it a month later when another black one became available. I only had my second camera for a few days before it also locked up in the same manner. Naturally, I'm now concerned about the long-term reliability of this particular camera and I've started to regret becoming an early adopter. My dealer has been outstanding in resolving these issues and he has assured my complete satisfaction. I've spoken with Leica Technical Support and even submitted a video proving the lockup. They don't really have an immediate answer since the problem is difficult to duplicate.

 

Admittedly, I am merely a hobby enthusiast. My camera for the last ten years has been the Leica Digilux 2 purchased new in 2004. I waited and saved a long time to replace the Digilux 2. The T seemed like the right moment. The T along with 23mm lens and Visoflex at $4,395 was really a stretch for me. Earlier this year, I attended the Leica M240 Shooting Experience and that's where I learned about zone focusing. Naturally, I wanted to try this out with the T. That's when I discovered the DOF scale issue. I'm not sure why you think this only affects 1% of users. I only have one lens. Mostly I want to use auto-focus--my eyesight is not that great. But I also want to try my hand at street shooting using zone focusing. This seems to be a Leica trait.

 

Regarding feedback, I think Leica does a poor job of enabling. I had a difficult time figuring out who to send it to. It's 2014 and there is no "feedback" page on Leica's web site. I think they should solicit from a broader audience than just web forums. At any rate, I've already emailed Leica. I've copied my email below so you can see some of the things that concerned me. Understandably, you may not agree with some of these points. It's intended to be constructive feedback, not bashing the camera. I want Leica to be successful with this camera. The more feedback Leica receives, the better they are able to prioritize their resources, so please send your own feedback.

 

1. Leica web site should have a formal feedback process similar to Apple - Feedback with an email acknowledgment of receipt.

 

2. Auto Review duration should have OFF option. Currently, the shortest duration is 1 second. This is the single most frustrating feature of the camera and goes against the philosophy of decisive moment—it is worse than using an SLR when the mirror flips. It is particularly noticeable when using the Visoflex EVF. When taking photos, I should be able to see continuous live image as if using a rangefinder—not be blinded for 1 second.

 

3. Lag time switching between LCD and Visoflex EVF is very slow, particularly considering price of Visoflex and competitors near instantaneous response.

 

4. Review Mode by “swiping-down” is the most non-intuitive aspect of the user interface. It has been mentioned in every single camera review. One should not have to be told or forced to consult User Instructions to learn how to do it. I suggest placing a fourth icon (“>” Play triangle) in the right toolbar. There is plenty of space to accommodate. It would make playback more obvious, quicker and prevent interference with touch focus.

 

5. Disabling right toolbar (by swiping down to make the icons dim) should be sticky when turning camera off. Currently, if camera is turned off, then back on, it reverts back to active toolbar. I want to be able to turn camera off/on without constantly resetting this to prevent unintentional operation.

 

6. DOF scale is inaccurate after turning camera off, then back on. For example, I have my camera set to Aperture Priority and Manual Focus for the purpose of zone focusing. I'm using the 23mm Summicron-T lens, my dials are set to EV and F. At f/16, the display shows a wide red bar on the distance scale indicating large depth-of-field as expected. If I turn the camera off then back on, the red bar changes to very narrow (as if f/2) even though it's still f/16. I try adjusting manual focus and the bar stays narrow. The only way to fix this is to change the f/stop, then the red bar suddenly corrects itself. There are times when I want to adjust focus, referring to DOF scale without changing f/stop.

 

7. Related to #6 above, when manually focusing, the display changes for about 5 seconds. During this time, the click wheels are completely inhibited—I can not change either the f/stop or EV (my settings) until after the display returns to normal, or half-pressing the shutter button (which also returns display to normal). Click wheels should be active at all times.

 

8. AF status icon in the top bar of the Info Display should reflect the Auto Focus Mode. Right now, it only distinguishes between MF and AF. The icons should match the settings icons to distinguish between Spot, 1Point, MultiPoint, TouchAF and Face Detection.

 

9. Wi-Fi menu tile icon should reflect Wi-Fi status. Currently, it always shows checkmark which suggests Wi-Fi is ON, even though OFF. It should be like GPS menu tile icon which has an “X” when GPS is turned off.

 

10. Top bar of Info Display should be more translucent. The bar appears even when no info is selected and shutter is half pressed. It hides too much of the image, making me think the top is cropped.

 

11. File Format should have option to save files DNG only.

 

12. Power-up and wake times should be improved if possible.

 

13. Strap hinges are squeaky when mounted on camera. I had to use spray lubricant to stop the squeaking.

 

14. Out-of-camera JPEGS seem a little flat and cool to me—not what I’ve experienced in previous Leica digital cameras. The DNGs are much better, however they appear to be over exposed by 2/3rds stop in Lightroom. I wish the JPEGs could come closer to Leica look.

 

15. Leica-T App for iPhone: When viewing an individual photo, I should be able to “swipe” left or right to see the other photos. Right now, I have to return to the thumbnail grid to select another photo.

[Guest badbob]

Here's a couple of thoughts I have, as a 'T' owner and long-time Leica customer: The 'T's to the M's (and to Leica in general) are as a $200 Nikon P&S is to Nikon. That's not to say that they don't take pride in it - they obviously do, but the company is really focused on the high end, and the 'T' (in my opinion only) is more like a loss-leader to bring new customers into the fold, who would not think of spending $10000 or more on a full-size Leica.

 

I shoot mostly bursts, and unlike a Panasonic I have that shoots its bursts almost instantly and then pauses briefly to write to the card, the 'T' sits and writes to its memory and displays a scrolling list of numbers like 8, 9, 10, 11, .... to indicate which of the burst shots it's currently writing. So my guess is, the 'T' isn't so much forcing a display after shooting as it is just displaying a 'cover' while it slowly writes images to memory.

 

Lastly, as a 25-year veteran of software engineering, I perceive that Leica does as little as possible in software/firmware, and being mostly a company focused on the very high end, with every low end camera being unique and requiring its own unique firmware, it's going to be a long wait between updates.

 

Oh, and if your cameras (both 'T's) were problematic in ways that mine is not, i.e. actually non-functional defective, then that's very bad luck indeed.

Edited August 13, 2014 by badbob

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The intent of my original post was merely to find out if the DOF issue was unique to my camera, or a "bug" in firmware v1.1. I hoped others would check their cameras to verify--I was a little surprised that 2 weeks went by without a single response. I certainly did not intend to bash Leica or stir up emotions. I'm fluent in several programming languages, so I'm well aware of software development and debugging. The Leica T's user-interface is far more advanced (and revolutionary) than any other Leica, so the fact that there are some initial "bugs" does not concern me. They were to be expected. However, Leica should be aggressive in updating the firmware. It's not unreasonable to expect this considering the upscale price and Leica's brand image.

 

 

 

My first Leica T locked up frequently (unresponsive LCD) and the click wheels were intermittent. My dealer exchanged it a month later when another black one became available. I only had my second camera for a few days before it also locked up in the same manner. Naturally, I'm now concerned about the long-term reliability of this particular camera and I've started to regret becoming an early adopter. My dealer has been outstanding in resolving these issues and he has assured my complete satisfaction. I've spoken with Leica Technical Support and even submitted a video proving the lockup. They don't really have an immediate answer since the problem is difficult to duplicate.

 

 

 

Admittedly, I am merely a hobby enthusiast. My camera for the last ten years has been the Leica Digilux 2 purchased new in 2004. I waited and saved a long time to replace the Digilux 2. The T seemed like the right moment. The T along with 23mm lens and Visoflex at $4,395 was really a stretch for me. Earlier this year, I attended the Leica M240 Shooting Experience and that's where I learned about zone focusing. Naturally, I wanted to try this out with the T. That's when I discovered the DOF scale issue. I'm not sure why you think this only affects 1% of users. I only have one lens. Mostly I want to use auto-focus--my eyesight is not that great. But I also want to try my hand at street shooting using zone focusing. This seems to be a Leica trait.

 

 

 

Regarding feedback, I think Leica does a poor job of enabling. I had a difficult time figuring out who to send it to. It's 2014 and there is no "feedback" page on Leica's web site. I think they should solicit from a broader audience than just web forums. At any rate, I've already emailed Leica. I've copied my email below so you can see some of the things that concerned me. Understandably, you may not agree with some of these points. It's intended to be constructive feedback, not bashing the camera. I want Leica to be successful with this camera. The more feedback Leica receives, the better they are able to prioritize their resources, so please send your own feedback.

 

 

Hello,

 

although I didn't have time to check the DOF issue so far, I did notice some of the issues of your list as I wrote in the Firmware Request(s) thread, and I basically agree with you. In particular I'm glad I'm not the only one who find pretty annoying the semi-transparent top (and bottom) bar of info display when looking thru the viewfinder: I think they should get rid of them and display the basic info in the black frame around the field of view, like many other mirrorless cameras do.

 

Having saved money too and invested in this camera system and planning to buy more lenses when available, I'd like too see Leica to succeed.

 

I'm wondering if you can share the email contact you found- is the one you find in the online owners area when you register? I hope the more people provide feedback the more Leica should take notice and make improvements.

 

Best

[Lee Martin]

Well if a company is going to make a "loss leader" to introduce people to a brand that would not initially consider buying into the $10,000 bracket, then this seems to have backfired terribly, as it clearly wasn't tested sufficiently and obviously has numerous problems and is proving unreliable. It's just the sort of thing to put people off going for the next step. The response from Leica seems to be to say nothing. Forty five minutes testing each camera might have been better spent actually checking it works properly rather than hand polishing

[wmfrog]

I confirm the malfunction of the depth of field indicator when shooting in aperture priority manual focus and the camera power is turned off and back on. You then have to change the f stop to get the proper reading back on the depth of field indicator. Seems like a prime candidate for a firmware fix that would apply to a lot of shooters that like to set focus range and shoot quickly (especially given that the auto focus is not super fast on the camera).

[pilot-kurt]

Everyone, thanks for the replies.

 

badbob, I agree Leica's prioritization seems to be traditional hand-craftsmanship ($$$) rather than software/firmware. Being so software-centric (and dependent), the T was a huge leap for a small company--I wonder if this part of the development was outsourced.

 

Ulixes, my dealer suggested emailing Leica.. My understanding was that they would forward to technicians in Germany. However, I never received acknowledgment from anyone, so I have no idea if my feedback was heard--just silence.

 

Lee Martin, you know the old saying: "First Impressions are Lasting Ones". Perhaps it’s bad luck, but I’ve had two of these cameras with serious debilitating software lockups.

 

wmfrog, thanks for confirming the DOF issue as a firmware problem.

 

Now to the bad news...

 

I spent the day taking photos while hiking. Unfortunately, the camera locked up again and I was presented with a new problem (attached photo taken with iPhone). The display reads "Error Code XXX OK". I missed taking photos for the rest of the afternoon as the camera seemed totally unresponsive and I tried to figure out what the heck was going on. Later, I discovered tapping OK would regain control. However, this Error Code now appears every single time I turn on the camera, thus requiring a two-step process just to turn it on. Perhaps it can be fixed by re-flashing the firmware, but if I had been backpacking on a multi-day trip instead of day hiking, I would have been even more pis--d.

 

I contacted my dealer and will be returning the camera without replacement. I just do not have confidence in it anymore and it has taken the pleasure of photography away—that’s the bottom line. I do not understand. I’m not the type of person who normally complains and scrutinizes. This is the first camera I’ve ever had this experience. I had ZERO issues with my Digilux 2 for ten years (other than sensor replacement covered by Leica). It just worked and took great photos without any fuss. Honestly, I wish I hadn’t sold it.

 

There were other problems too. The Visoflex kept tilting by itself from the stowed (clicked) position. Will Leica ever figure out a camera at this level should include a standard high-quality, built-in EVF? Also, I must have accidentally moved the left click wheel with my thumb to change the EV compensation without knowing. I didn’t discover it until much later but I can see how easy this is due to being right where I grip the camera to take photos. I now have a whole series overexposed with blown highlights that I will have to rescue in Lightroom.

 

I was so excited about this camera when it was announced to finally replace my beloved Digilux 2, but I’m sad and very frustrated now.

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Edited August 23, 2014 by andybarton
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[pico]

pilot-kurt: "I'm fluent in several programming languages"

 

Have you tried to deconstruct the firmware?

.

[pilot-kurt]

Have you tried to deconstruct the firmware?

.

 

Not sure what you mean by this... I haven't done any messing with the camera firmware and I have no interest in doing so. My programming experience is web site stuff (PHP, HTML etc.) so totally unrelated.

[Guest badbob]

This is interesting. I have a feeling whoever did the M8 firmware has probably done all in-house Leicas since then, at a very small budget compared to Panasonic et al. Even so, I still get the feeling you might have an intermittent circuit or chip in that camera causing it to lock up. If you were in the continental U.S. and still had the 'T', it might be good to swap camera bodies for awhile just to see if the operations you do make the difference.

Edited August 23, 2014 by andybarton

[pico]

With over thirty years experience I understand code development. Nothing good comes from compliant beta testers.

[pilot-kurt]

With over thirty years experience I understand code development. Nothing good comes from compliant beta testers.

 

I don't understand your point. Please explain.

[Guest badbob]

I don't understand your point. Please explain.

 

(Not answering for the other guy - just an observation).

 

Testing is an interesting thing. Ideally Leica would have contractor 'A' develop the firmware and send it to contractor 'B' (or Beta users) to shake it down. Entity 'B' cannot be influenced by entity 'A' of course - to 'A', 'B' is just a black box - shove it in and the test results pop out sometime later. Then it gets interesting, in that 'A' (after they get the test results) calls their Leica contact and says "We have x number of bugs/issues and we're going to need 15 weeks to fix everything, at a cost of nn dollars. Then Leica says "Let's fix issues 3, 4, 5, 12, and 17, and let the rest go for now". So firmware update x.y has those fixes, and update x.z is scheduled for mm/dd/yyyy, if it ever gets done. All guesses (i.e. professional estimates) are equally valid.

[pilot-kurt]

This is interesting. I have a feeling whoever did the M8 firmware has probably done all in-house Leicas since then, at a very small budget compared to Panasonic et al. Even so, I still get the feeling you might have an intermittent circuit or chip in that camera causing it to lock up. If you were in the continental U.S. and still had the 'T', it might be good to swap camera bodies for awhile just to see if the operations you do make the difference.

 

badbob, I agree the lockouts and error message are likely a hardware issue. I've already replaced the camera once before, so I've decided to return it and let Leica figure out their manufacturing process. I need a dependable camera and I really wanted a 50mm (equivalent) prime auto-focus lens anyway.

 

The error message appeared every time I turned the camera on the last four days. As I was taking the camera apart to ship today, I turned it on one last time and of course--no error message. When I was hiking, the camera was around my neck and it got jostled a bit (but not violently), so I decided to shake the camera. Voila, the error message is back. It appears whether or not Visoflex is attached. I made a video because intermittent failures are so frustrating and I want the dealer to believe me.

[Guest badbob]

badbob, I agree the lockouts and error message are likely a hardware issue. I've already replaced the camera once before, so I've decided to return it and let Leica figure out their manufacturing process. I need a dependable camera and I really wanted a 50mm (equivalent) prime auto-focus lens anyway.

 

The error message appeared every time I turned the camera on the last four days. As I was taking the camera apart to ship today, I turned it on one last time and of course--no error message. When I was hiking, the camera was around my neck and it got jostled a bit (but not violently), so I decided to shake the camera. Voila, the error message is back. It appears whether or not Visoflex is attached. I made a video because intermittent failures are so frustrating and I want the dealer to believe me.

 

That's pretty solid confirmation - thanks.

[andybarton]

Must have been one of the ones made my Sony <- Joke...

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[wmfrog]

This has been fixed in the new firmware (1.2).

Nice job, Leica.