dent Posted June 22, 2014 Share #1 Posted June 22, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello Folks. Up to now I use my MM with the Summilux 35/1.4 ASPH (pre FLE). Since I almost always shoot stopped down and zone focused the size penalty of the Summilux does not really make sense. I´m considering exchanging the Summilux with the more compact Summicron 35/2 ASPH. I would appreciate your help because I am concerned about the overall image character of a stopped down Summicron 35 ASPH on the MM. Is it much different than the stopped down Summilux ASPH? I do not like “clinical” picture looks and aim primary for a file with lower overall contrast and nice detail/microcontrast giving maximum potential for post processing. That all without looking to “vintage” or dreamy. This balance is OK with the Summilux as there is good potential for later midtone separation. I do not want to mess it up with the Summicron. You´ll find some samples in my Recent Additions Gallery. Those are made under the grittiest of light conditions in near darkness. The files are therefore stretched to a painful maximum but they somehow illustrate the look I want. Be warned - the content of the pictures might be a tad to graphical for some viewers. Recent Additions - MindfulPhotography Any other suggestions for a 35mm lens for the MM? Perhaps even along with a picture to illustrate your point? Thanks for Your help Jochen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 22, 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 Hi dent, Take a look here 35mm lenses and the Monochrom sensor. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted June 22, 2014 Share #2 Posted June 22, 2014 My favorite low light 35 is the Summicron asph because of its rendering but it is probably too clinical for your taste. Why not try out one of the older Summicrons? There will be no messing up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billo101 Posted June 22, 2014 Share #3 Posted June 22, 2014 On Monochrom I love my 35 Lux FLE, no others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted June 22, 2014 Share #4 Posted June 22, 2014 It's a digital camera, there are so many ways to make an image less clinical. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgcm Posted June 22, 2014 Share #5 Posted June 22, 2014 Dent, I had a look at your pictures. If I were you, I would borrow / rent the last Summicron 35 pre Asph and a Summarit 35. Maybe you will like more the Summarit as I do. But the overall contrast will not change. Steve is right about the overall contrast. What about learning the use of curves in pp? I think you could get better results there than changing lenses. Franco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colint544 Posted June 22, 2014 Share #6 Posted June 22, 2014 I have the 35mm Summilux ASPH FLE (and M Monochrom), but I've never massively bonded with it. It's extremely, and impressively, sharp at all apertures but the rendering in the out of focus areas isn't always to my taste. It's great in low light though. But I recently bought an extremely scruffy 35mm Summaron F2.8 from Red Dot cameras in London. It's really banged about and rattly. It's so dented that I can't even get a filter onto it. But the glass is clean, and it was only £225. I have to say, I'm loving the pictures it produces with the M Monochrom. Not too 'dreamy', but startlingly crisp to my eyes. And the tones are gorgeous. The serial number indicates that it was made in 1959. I'm impressed. Anyway, perhaps something to consider, and very inexpensive. Here are a few images from the Summaron. Best wishes, Colin Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/229301-35mm-lenses-and-the-monochrom-sensor/?do=findComment&comment=2615729'>More sharing options...
dent Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share #7 Posted June 22, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks for all the interesting input. I follow Your insight that the overall picture feel is mostly generated in post processing. This might be by far the main factor and freedom of course. In my humble experience there are indeed key differences in the rendering of the lenses that may be welcomed or not as an artistic element within the visual message of the picture. I somehow find this factor pronounced by the very special characteristics of the MM sensor. I had to substantially change my post processing when changing from the 28/2 Asph to 35/1.4 ASPH. With the 28/2 on the MM there was so much impressive micro detail within the frame that in many cases it was distracting from the main subject. At least for my visual taste. Structure somehow became visually dominating the main subject which may only be fine when your main subject is not interesting enough for a strong picture. At least in social photography. I was impressed by the detail of the files but found myself fumbling a lot with curves and grain engine and blur masks. An other aspect may be about the behavior of higher contrast edges and out of focus transitions, that for my taste sometimes are too strong in some recent lenses. This I find not easy to fix in post processing at all. But this may be due to my limited post processing skills. Yes, why not giving the older Summicrons or the Summarit a try. I just do not follow the (exaggerated) implication "do not worry about lens signature - it´s all post processing" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dent Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share #8 Posted June 22, 2014 Colin! Thanks for the pictures! Beautiful mood in the first one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 23, 2014 Share #9 Posted June 23, 2014 Jochen, first - beautiful photography, you share with your link! Next, I have been through almost all thinkable 35mm options to find my preferred 35mm lenses (a few of them with several samples): 35/2 ASPH 35/1.4 ASPH 35/1.2 ASPHERICAL CV 35/2 UC-Hexanon 35/1.8 W-Nikkor LTM 35/2 Canon LTM 35/2 Summicron v1 35/2 Summicron v4 35/1.4 Summilux v2 I think, I forgot a few as well. My favourites considering an all around package from the bunch: 35/1.4 ASPH 35/1.2 ASPHERICAL CV 35/2 UC-Hexanon These three are distinctively different and deliver a very special imaging by themselves. The 35 Summilux ASPH for me is a bit of a workhorse, very reliable all around lens - very flare resistent, nice resolution, smooth wide open, perfect ergonomics for it's speed - a really nice lens. My absolute favourite from all 35mm I have used though is surprisingly the tiny Konica 35/2 UC-Hexanon LTM, a special edition lens (I believe 1000 pcs made) in LTM mount (you need a LTM-M adapter to use it on a Leica M). It has to me the best of all lenses in terms of character and yet it is the smallest, lightest but still the best built lens of them all. It is a non aspherical lens, therefore not as highly resolving wide open, yet it is not a "vintage" looking lens but a modern design. It has an E43 filter thread (filters can be found for this size on well stocked online dealers). I use this lens on the Mono mostly without contrast filter when people are in the image, as I like the balance best. It is slightly smaller than a v4 Summicron it is much better built than any Leica 35mm I have used so far. It's aperture control is perfect - no play, no rattle, no wearing out like Leica aperture rings. Its focus ring is the smoothest I have ever used. The focus tab has approximately the shape of the Leica Summicron v4 or pre ASPH Summilux v2 tabs and is ergonomically perfect. The lens focusses down to 0.9m which is the only compromise I take over the modern Leica 35mm lenses. When taking a 35mm lens on a Leica M, this is the one I almost always grab. The UC-Hex is more adverse to flare than the Summilux ASPH (just about any lens bar the 35/1.2 CV is actually as these are indeed the two masters of flare control). Use a lens hood when in doubt or simply shield the lens with your hand for the few shots when flare is an issue (I attached backlit samples for both lenses). It is by far not as bad as the pre ASPH Summilux or Summicron lenses and is in my opinion better than the very, very ugly flare of the ASPH Summicron. I am not a fan of the Summicron ASPH at all and find it too large and heavy for a 35/2 but most importantly it produces a very ugly flare pattern with strong light sources just without the frame. I understand your sensibility to different looks of these lenses and a need for different processing. I found none of the 35mm lenses to be perfect matches in looks but rather adjust a little in regards of how I process depending on the lens. I did not yet use a 35/2.5 Summarit extensively but have this lens high on my want list. The 35/2 Summicron v1 is a recent acquisition and I am still out with a firm opinion on this lens. I can understand the cult around the lens though but think this is a lens you did not ask for as it is entirely different looking from the 35 Summilux ASPH. In terms of the above listed lenses matching the closest to the 35 Summilux ASPH, I think the Summicron ASPH would be first in line followed by the the UC-Hex. I believe you need to think also which other lenses you would pair a 35/2 lens with in terms of look rather than thinking about finding a slower, more compact 35mm matching your 35/1.4 ASPH. Here you can find a search of my flickr with the UC-Hex: https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=UC-Hexanon&user_id=52593619%40N02&sort=date-posted-desc portrait - worker by teknopunk.com, on Flickr night shift by teknopunk.com, on Flickr …*and a search with the Summilux-M ASPH: https://www.flickr.com/search?user_id=52593619%40N02&sort=date-posted-desc&text=Summilux-M portrait - old man by teknopunk.com, on Flickr reading newspaper by teknopunk.com, on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 23, 2014 Share #10 Posted June 23, 2014 Well, you did forget my favourite on the MM: The Zeiss Biogon 35 2.0 ZM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmolinski Posted June 23, 2014 Share #11 Posted June 23, 2014 Thanks Dirk, for the great input here... helped also me a lot! Jochen, first - beautiful photography, you share with your link! Next, I have been through almost all thinkable 35mm options to find my preferred 35mm lenses (a few of them with several samples): 35/2 ASPH 35/1.4 ASPH 35/1.2 ASPHERICAL CV 35/2 UC-Hexanon 35/1.8 W-Nikkor LTM 35/2 Canon LTM 35/2 Summicron v1 35/2 Summicron v4 35/1.4 Summilux v2 I think, I forgot a few as well. My favourites considering an all around package from the bunch: 35/1.4 ASPH 35/1.2 ASPHERICAL CV 35/2 UC-Hexanon These three are distinctively different and deliver a very special imaging by themselves. The 35 Summilux ASPH for me is a bit of a workhorse, very reliable all around lens - very flare resistent, nice resolution, smooth wide open, perfect ergonomics for it's speed - a really nice lens. My absolute favourite from all 35mm I have used though is surprisingly the tiny Konica 35/2 UC-Hexanon LTM, a special edition lens (I believe 1000 pcs made) in LTM mount (you need a LTM-M adapter to use it on a Leica M). It has to me the best of all lenses in terms of character and yet it is the smallest, lightest but still the best built lens of them all. It is a non aspherical lens, therefore not as highly resolving wide open, yet it is not a "vintage" looking lens but a modern design. It has an E43 filter thread (filters can be found for this size on well stocked online dealers). I use this lens on the Mono mostly without contrast filter when people are in the image, as I like the balance best. It is slightly smaller than a v4 Summicron it is much better built than any Leica 35mm I have used so far. It's aperture control is perfect - no play, no rattle, no wearing out like Leica aperture rings. Its focus ring is the smoothest I have ever used. The focus tab has approximately the shape of the Leica Summicron v4 or pre ASPH Summilux v2 tabs and is ergonomically perfect. The lens focusses down to 0.9m which is the only compromise I take over the modern Leica 35mm lenses. When taking a 35mm lens on a Leica M, this is the one I almost always grab. The UC-Hex is more adverse to flare than the Summilux ASPH (just about any lens bar the 35/1.2 CV is actually as these are indeed the two masters of flare control). Use a lens hood when in doubt or simply shield the lens with your hand for the few shots when flare is an issue (I attached backlit samples for both lenses). It is by far not as bad as the pre ASPH Summilux or Summicron lenses and is in my opinion better than the very, very ugly flare of the ASPH Summicron. I am not a fan of the Summicron ASPH at all and find it too large and heavy for a 35/2 but most importantly it produces a very ugly flare pattern with strong light sources just without the frame. I understand your sensibility to different looks of these lenses and a need for different processing. I found none of the 35mm lenses to be perfect matches in looks but rather adjust a little in regards of how I process depending on the lens. I did not yet use a 35/2.5 Summarit extensively but have this lens high on my want list. The 35/2 Summicron v1 is a recent acquisition and I am still out with a firm opinion on this lens. I can understand the cult around the lens though but think this is a lens you did not ask for as it is entirely different looking from the 35 Summilux ASPH. In terms of the above listed lenses matching the closest to the 35 Summilux ASPH, I think the Summicron ASPH would be first in line followed by the the UC-Hex. I believe you need to think also which other lenses you would pair a 35/2 lens with in terms of look rather than thinking about finding a slower, more compact 35mm matching your 35/1.4 ASPH. Here you can find a search of my flickr with the UC-Hex: https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=UC-Hexanon&user_id=52593619%40N02&sort=date-posted-desc portrait - worker by teknopunk.com, on Flickr night shift by teknopunk.com, on Flickr …*and a search with the Summilux-M ASPH: https://www.flickr.com/search?user_id=52593619%40N02&sort=date-posted-desc&text=Summilux-M portrait - old man by teknopunk.com, on Flickr reading newspaper by teknopunk.com, on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dent Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share #12 Posted June 23, 2014 Thanks Dirk for the extensive and inspiring 35mm lens report. I admire the beautiful composition and tonality of your shots. Jochen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 23, 2014 Share #13 Posted June 23, 2014 The only way to know how a lens will work…or not…in your specific workflow is to try it and see. Nobody here can account for your specific variables, needs and preferences. You should be able to obtain…rent, loan or purchase…a 35 Summicron ASPH without significant cost differential if you decide to switch or sell. I bet it will work just fine. If not, no big deal, as you already have a lens that seems to work well for you. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dent Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share #14 Posted June 23, 2014 Thanks Jeff. Thanks for Your thoughts. After 15 years with leica M I am well aware of the easy buy and resell cycle of leica lenses. It is one of the huge advantages of the M system. Due to moving abroad recently and building up a new familiy home my bank account does not allow for such experiments at this time. So if I want another lens I would have to sell the summilux first. That's why I ask for your kind expert input. I'm more or less a one-lens-shooter :-) or two lens if you count the DSLR Cheers Jochen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ansel_Adams Posted June 23, 2014 Share #15 Posted June 23, 2014 I guess we all see things different. I absolutely love the 35 Summicron ASPH over every other 35mm lens. Beautiful OOF and very flare resistant. Compact, light, a joy to use. There is a reason it is the most popular Leica lens. Its absolutely superb! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 23, 2014 Share #16 Posted June 23, 2014 Due to moving abroad recently and building up a new familiy home my bank account does not allow for such experiments at this time. Then I wouldn't bother, for now, especially without a compelling reason, which I don't see. Your not having the time or resources doesn't make internet posts any more definitive for your needs. Are you really willing to sell your Summilux, and get another lens, just based on some web feedback? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ansel_Adams Posted June 23, 2014 Share #17 Posted June 23, 2014 I think people place far to much emphasis on lens choices. They are all more than good enough to deliver stellar results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dent Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share #18 Posted June 24, 2014 Thanks for your kind replies. I just want to know if the character of a stopped down 35 Summilux ASPH is much different from a stopped down Summicron ASPH on the Monochrom. Thats all I want to know for now. I´ll just appreciate a more compact lens without changing much in terms of picture feel. Cheers Jochen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ansel_Adams Posted June 24, 2014 Share #19 Posted June 24, 2014 Thanks for your kind replies. I just want to know if the character of a stopped down 35 Summilux ASPH is much different from a stopped down Summicron ASPH on the Monochrom. Thats all I want to know for now. I´ll just appreciate a more compact lens without changing much in terms of picture feel. Cheers Jochen Yes, I think you can. If you look at the following comparison they seem pretty similar - in fact there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference between any of the 35s when you actually compare: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-lenses/328856-35mm-lens-comparison.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 24, 2014 Share #20 Posted June 24, 2014 Thanks Dirk, for the great input here... helped also me a lot! You are welcome, happy I could help. Thanks Dirk for the extensive and inspiring 35mm lens report.I admire the beautiful composition and tonality of your shots. Jochen thanks Jochen, much appreciated! Then I wouldn't bother, for now, especially without a compelling reason, which I don't see. Your not having the time or resources doesn't make internet posts any more definitive for your needs. Are you really willing to sell your Summilux, and get another lens, just based on some web feedback? Jeff After learning more of Jochen's situation wanting to exchange the Summilux for another lens, I am all with Jeff here. I would not give up the Summilux ASPH for another lens just to get the camera a little lighter. Sure a v4 Summicron or UC-Hex weights almost nothing on the camera and is generally so tiny that a Leica M really starts to fit a coat pocket but you give up the ability of one stop light and using DOF when wanted. The Summilux ASPH is also one of the best lenses in terms of flare control and without argument does it have exquisite ergonomics. In my opinion any such lens swap should be performed with both contenders in possession at the same time to really be able to compare over a meaningful period of time before committing to just keeping one of them. Thanks for your kind replies. I just want to know if the character of a stopped down 35 Summilux ASPH is much different from a stopped down Summicron ASPH on the Monochrom. Thats all I want to know for now. I´ll just appreciate a more compact lens without changing much in terms of picture feel. Cheers Jochen The ASPH Summicron comes closest to the Summilux ASPH in terms of image character from all mentioned lenses in this thread so far. You give up really great flare control of the Summilux (in my opinion the biggest downfall when comparing these two lenses). The Summicron ASPH is not THAT much lighter and smaller in practical terms, when comparing with a Summilux ASPH (you can generally use the Summilux without lens hood, while the Summicron really needs the excellent square plastic hood it comes with to fight those pesky patterns). Your Summilux seems to work fantastic (despite you feeling a lighter, smaller lens would be desirable). I wouldn't change a thing if selling the Summilux is mandatory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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