thighslapper Posted June 19, 2014 Share #21 Posted June 19, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Similar issues with the XV, Sony A7r etc etc. All problems with low light...... or more correctly, high ISO .... above 1600 and worse the more you zoom in..... You need something with good vertical contrast to lock onto with spot/single point .... otherwise it will hunt for any high contrast area to focus on...... I tend to pick my 'vertical contrast' target ...... not necessarily centre frame ...... then lock and re-compose and shoot. I've had no issues with the XV using this method and the T should be no different .... Using the EVF/screen in low light to focus manually is always going to be difficult ...... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Hi thighslapper, Take a look here First disappointing evening with the T. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
barjohn Posted June 19, 2014 Share #22 Posted June 19, 2014 While I haven't really used the touch focus but a few times, it may be the best approach when you want to focus on something that is not in the center of the frame. It seems to work pretty similar to the iPhone but being a heavier camera it might be a little more difficult to use. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikasmg Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share #23 Posted June 19, 2014 I've tried touch focus a bit but because the camera is heavier than an iPhone I've found it cumbersome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevesurf Posted June 20, 2014 Share #24 Posted June 20, 2014 Thanks. One more shot taken with face detection in a great little restaurant in Dana Point Harbor, CA. Just remember, If it can't find any faces it will revert to multi-point. John, a wonderful shot demonstrating a great DoF selection. You can tell by the window frame. And lovely subjects as well! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted June 20, 2014 Share #25 Posted June 20, 2014 Thank you for the kind words. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted June 21, 2014 Share #26 Posted June 21, 2014 At the risk of stating the obvious, low light has always been a problem for autofocus cameras. I think that had an influence on my shooting with film based M cameras for so long, until I could no longer resist the M240. It is manual focus too, so I'm happy with it in that regard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted June 21, 2014 Share #27 Posted June 21, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I simply cannot see what use multi-focusing has. Once tried and never again. It is a blind guessing game. Sorry your evening was spoilt by your fight with technology. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikasmg Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share #28 Posted June 21, 2014 I simply cannot see what use multi-focusing has. Once tried and never again. It is a blind guessing game. Sorry your evening was spoilt by your fight with technology. I must say I share your opinion of multi-field focussing. Photography apart it was a good evening and not all pictures were a washout: 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 21, 2014 Share #29 Posted June 21, 2014 I simply cannot see what use multi-focusing has. The first AF cameras (around 1975) had a single AF field in the center. That was fine when there was just one subject and the subject was in the center, but invariably someone would take, say, a picture of two people, the AF field would be right between the two and the camera would focus on the background. As this was in the analog era the photographer wouldn’t realise the shot was ruined until it was too late. So camera vendors increased the number of AF fields and implemented an algorithm going by the rule that whatever was closest to the camera was probably the intended subject and should thus be in focus. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted June 21, 2014 Share #30 Posted June 21, 2014 .... So camera vendors increased the number of AF fields and implemented an algorithm going by the rule that whatever was closest to the camera was probably the intended subject and should thus be in focus. And that rule is its downfall, Michael. The camera resorts to a rule which does not automatically conform to real life. A chair back takes precedence over the occupant if the chair back is closer to the camera for example. Because of its unpredictability, I find it best to ignore that focus mode and remember to select visually what I want in focus. A single point or spot is much better for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 21, 2014 Share #31 Posted June 21, 2014 And that rule is its downfall, Michael. The camera resorts to a rule which does not automatically conform to real life. A chair back takes precedence over the occupant if the chair back is closer to the camera for example. That’s why face detection AF was invented. Anyway, multi-point AF was and is intended for people who couldn’t be bothered with selecting an appropriate AF field and anything that fares better than a single AF field in the center (considering that that type of photographer wouldn’t care what it’s pointing at) was an improvement. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted June 21, 2014 Share #32 Posted June 21, 2014 Last night was my first attempt to use the camera in low light in a real life situation in a restaurant. The behavior was somewhat unexpected and it will be hard to describe. The most confusing aspect is that I have tried in what I thought was a similar light level in my home and seen different behavior. I was shooting pictures of my niece and nephew and my nieces girl friend. I had ISO set to auto and 1-point AF. On the auto ISO i had the maximum shutter speed set to auto (½*FL) and max ISO at 6400. Camera was set to Aperture priority and I was shooting from 18-24mm (actual). The LCD screen would stay so dark, I could barely see the subjects. The camera would not AF and I could not get a confirmation. I have tried the same thing in a dark room at home using objects rather than people and the camera has found focus. MF would not have helped because the screen did not gain up and would have been too dark. Note, there is no setting I could find to tell the camera you don't want it to display actual light level but rather you want it to gain up. With auto ISO it appears to use the lowest ISO until the ½ press of the shutter button. I did not try and use manual ISO and maybe I should have. I then used face detect AF and popped up the flash. The camera would detect the faces momentarily and then select other things, constantly changing. I waited until the AF squared showed on a face and fired. The flash fired and many of the shots came out in focus, some more so than others but the ISO was typically set to 6400 and ranged from 6400 to 2000 with the majority at 6400 and 3200. This behavior surprised me as did the fact that occasionally the screen would gain up momentarily and then go back to dark and occasionally it would select a center 1-point focus box to display. I would have expected with flash set to operate that it would select a low ISO rather than a high one and in such conditions I would have expected the screen to gain up. I did not have an opportunity to experiment a lot as it was a social event and my wife expected me to be engaged with the people rather than my camera. The next opportunity I have, I will test other settings to see if I can narrow down a preferred set of settings for these conditions. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/229119-first-disappointing-evening-with-the-t/?do=findComment&comment=2615491'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 21, 2014 Share #33 Posted June 21, 2014 Still, nt much wrong with the results... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted June 21, 2014 Share #34 Posted June 21, 2014 I took the camera into a dark closet to see what it is doing. Here is my finding. My memory was a little off from last night (2-martinis didn't help memory) What I see is that the screen is actually slightly gained up until the ½ press where it drops down in brightness to the shooting conditions. I'm not sure why this is happening as I had the aperture set to wide open f3.5 but once it computes in the shutter speed and ISO it becomes really dark. On the Sony camera you can elect to have the camera gain up the screen and keep it gained up or display the way it will look when shooting. The T doesn't provide this choice and it is needed for low light shooting. Forget MF the screen is almost black in low light. I next will test to see what it is doing when flash is elected and report back (after I get back from dinner this evening). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted June 22, 2014 Share #35 Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) In playing wight he camera in a relatively dark room and playing with the flash I learned that you don't want to use auto ISO with flash as it will go to a high ISO value based on the available light ignoring that the flash exposure should not require the high ISO and it will select a shutter speed using the formula shown in the user manual if auto maximum shutter speed is selected. So, for better control, switch to shutter speed priority and select your desired ISO manually. The good news is that it does adjust the flash to match the settings and seems to properly expose the image either way. I played a bit more with focus and tired the AF assist light in light levels where the camera could not find focus. The single point worked best (no faces to try face detect) but the AF assist light did not seem to make any difference. If it couldn't AF without it, it couldn't focus with it either and visa versa. I was ably to manually focus even though the LCD was very dim. I was a little slow in finding the focus even at 6X. The LCD behaves a bit erratically sometimes brightening up for no reason and always on ½ press going dimmer then about ½ sec later getting a little brighter. The recorded image is almost always brighter than the image showing on the LCD prior to shooting the picture. Selecting a scene mode like night portrait gains up the LCD but all normal control is lost and you get what the camera decides to give you. The bottom line is the firmware shows its immaturity with erratic behavior in low light. In normal light, these problems if they exist, are not noticeable. In low light where you would need ISO 6400 or a flash it can be a real challenge. I also tried the EVF. It is a little less erratic but neither the EVF or LCD display matches the image prior to taking the photo and then looking at the photo taken afterwards. The EVF/LCD is always much darker than the reviewed image. This indicates they could gain up the LCD/EVF and ti would really help with low light picture taking. Edited June 22, 2014 by barjohn 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 22, 2014 Share #36 Posted June 22, 2014 John, I wish that Leica would look and listen to your astute observations and good suggestions regarding these niggles, and that they would (quickly) make some firmware changes. You are certainly an asset here and to them, with the time you take with your testing and observations. (I am an IT guy by trade, like you, and I value your scientific approach.) How do you find the T's metering/exposure overall? I have to look back to your other posts regarding exposure compensation adjustments. I seem to need to make more changes with Exposure Compensation on the T rather than the XV. Perhaps my output disappoints me, in part, because I am being 'fooled' by the apparent brightness differences between the display and resultant image. Nor do I see the same rather-amazing micro contrast with either T lens that I had with the X Vario. I know it's off topic, but have you found a 'secret sauce' in post processing that brings it out more? Also, what do you have your left adjustment dial set to? I go back and forth in my head - because of the need to fiddle with Exposure Comp and ISO... Cheers! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted June 22, 2014 Share #37 Posted June 22, 2014 DGP, I find the exposure is pretty spot on with the JPGs but the DNG's are over exposed in many cases (daylight outside). I have a preset that I use as my starting point for DNG files. The settings are as follows: Exposure -0.60 Clarity: 10 Sharpness 50 Radius 1 I select embedded for camera profile Then I may have to adjust highlights if there are areas where highlights are blown and sometimes I have to bring up shadow a little. The main thing the JPGs need is highlight adjustment to bring in the blown highlights and I sometimes have to bring saturation down as my default setting in the camera is Standard with all three sliders up one notch. This is the setting that allows me to most closely match my JPG and raw files. There are times when the JPG has strange artifacts and nothing seems to get rid of them so I usually convert from DNG to JPG when I have time. When I am in a hurry I will use the JPGs. The XV did not demonstrate these differences to the same degree. However, the end result is often slightly better with the T. It does take more work. Try my settings as a starting point and see what you get. Here is a link to my preset. By the way, with flash the exposure difference between the JPG and DNG is different. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satijntje Posted June 22, 2014 Share #38 Posted June 22, 2014 DGP, I find the exposure is pretty spot on with the JPGs but the DNG's are over exposed in many cases (daylight outside). I have a preset that I use as my starting point for DNG files. The settings are as follows: Exposure -0.60 Clarity: 10 Sharpness 50 Radius 1 I select embedded for camera profile Then I may have to adjust highlights if there are areas where highlights are blown and sometimes I have to bring up shadow a little. The main thing the JPGs need is highlight adjustment to bring in the blown highlights and I sometimes have to bring saturation down as my default setting in the camera is Standard with all three sliders up one notch. This is the setting that allows me to most closely match my JPG and raw files. There are times when the JPG has strange artifacts and nothing seems to get rid of them so I usually convert from DNG to JPG when I have time. When I am in a hurry I will use the JPGs. The XV did not demonstrate these differences to the same degree. However, the end result is often slightly better with the T. It does take more work. Try my settings as a starting point and see what you get. Here is a link to my preset. By the way, with flash the exposure difference between the JPG and DNG is different. John. I have downloaded your file and see that the file is a .txt file. How do I get this into lightroom? Does this need to be converted into a special format. Sorry to ask this question here, it should have been in another section..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted June 22, 2014 Share #39 Posted June 22, 2014 It should be a Leica T DNG.irtemplate as the file type (which is internally a text file) You need to put this file in the user presets folder. Here is the path to my user preset folder. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/229119-first-disappointing-evening-with-the-t/?do=findComment&comment=2616051'>More sharing options...
colonel Posted June 25, 2014 Share #40 Posted June 25, 2014 DGP, Then I may have to adjust highlights if there are areas where highlights are blown and sometimes I have to bring up shadow a little. although technically the same sensor as the XV, how do you find highlight recovery ? on a scale 1-10 if you want, where would it fit in ? my scale FYI is: 9 - Sony A7 & RX1 & D800E 8 - M240 7 - XV 6 - X-E1 & X100S 5 - E-M5 & E-M1 4 - RX100M2 rgds Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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