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Johannes Knightworth

Interesting M8 Review ....

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Mike,

 

(I don't know if you are still reading this thread, or the other one where I also posted)

 

What irked me personally, as a long-time theonlinephotographer and B&W editorial reader, was not your opinion, not your conclusion, not the flaws you pointed out, and so on.

 

What irked me was all the stuff you wrapped it in. Stories about rich, misguided people spending more money than necessary, the incorrect and silently removed quote from Cohn, the excessive focus on existing Leica owners (the M8 is my first Leica), religion (what camera owner is not religious about their camera? K10D owners are!), the weird comment about lenses being less important with digital, the lack of clarification on the IR filter being used for your shots, the comment about slowness (the M8 is at least as fast as previous Ms), and so on.

 

It feels like being the target of cheap shots to read that stuff. I don't mind if you don't like the M8, or if you like it but were disappointed, although I would of course have hoped that you liked it more, but I don't understand the need to take potshots. I also don't think that the "raked over the coals" comments are fair.

 

On the other hand, I found some of your observations interesting, for example most P&S cameras being better at being indiscreet than the Leica (although they aren't as robust), the XTi being more responsive, and so on.

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To me, it's all about the pictures and I've posted on MJ's blog and in the other thread here the reasons that, for the time being, I'm sticking to small sensor cameras (Ricoh GR-D and Leica D-Lux 3). So far I've seen some M8 photographs that are technically good, but artistically boring. Eventually we'll see some that are more interesting.

 

I dont quite see what the artistic merits or dismerits of photographs taken with a camera have to do with the qualities of that camera.

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I think what Mitch says is that the M8 is not the first choice for "grab shots" ... a GR-D or D-lux 3 will certainly act much faster for these.

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Guest sirvine

Vote with your clicks and links (don't forget that linking to an article is likely to improve its visibility in search engine results for "M8"). Who cares if his readers get the wrong idea? It's their loss, after all.

 

Oh, and who says the M8 can't handle grab shots? (Excuse the crummy JPG compression)

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I think what Mitch says is that the M8 is not the first choice for "grab shots" ... a GR-D or D-lux 3 will certainly act much faster for these.

 

Actually, in my experience, it won't. I shot with the D-Lux 3 and M8 side by side for weeks and the latter responds much faster to the shutter (as I wrote in the DL3 review). That doesn't mean the former camera isn't better for Mitch. In fact, I suggested it to him. But lets not mix up facts and preferences. Shutter lag can be measured. Mike was mistaken about the M8's shutter lag and he and I have been discussing that. If those comments stand as written, some people will be mislead about that aspect of the camera. He also didn't explore the file quality well enough to see what the M8 can do in large prints.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Actually, in my experience, it won't. I shot with the D-Lux 3 and M8 side by side for weeks and the latter responds much faster to the shutter (as I wrote in the DL3 review). That doesn't mean the former camera isn't better for Mitch. In fact, I suggested it to him. But lets not mix up facts and preferences. Shutter lag can be measured. Mike was mistaken about the M8's shutter lag and he and I have been discussing that. If those comments stand as written, some people will be mislead about that aspect of the camera. He also didn't explore the file quality well enough to see what the M8 can do in large prints.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

maybe he is mistaking the shutter feel for lag, I know that it is not my favourite part of the camera, mine is still pretty crunchy after 3500 actuations, and I have had to re-learn it from the M6. But it does affect my "perception" of when the shutter fires, definitely, but then, so does having instant feedback. I have noticed that my perception of when the shutter fires in terms of me getting a person in a certain position in dealing with quick motion is not what I thought-now perhaps it never was on the M6 either, and i just didn't notice until I got the film back, but on the M8, I spent an evening in Times Square doing some hip shooting, something I don't usually do, but I was trying to get a figure centered at close range moving sideways with respect to me, and I was consistently ahead of the action, so the actuation was later than I thought. But I have no results to compare with on the M6 so it is hard for me to say, but it surprised me, I thought I was a lot more "accurate than that".

Above is a successful (sort of) capture, most were completely off. taken, this is hard to do, 21mm, very close, and fast, there is only a fraction when the figure is actually centered. I think looking through the viewfinder I don't have the same problem, but I am not so sure.

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Choosing a camera is all about choosing what compromises you are willing to make. Along with autofocus, came crappy viewfinders, then came cropped format digital SLR's and even crappier viewfinders. If the viewfinder was an interface feature you where not willing to compromise on and manual focus remained important to you, you probably stuck with your old manual SLR even though you would have liked to have autofocus when you wanted it. Imagine trying to sell someone a film based digital Rebel ( a $200 camera) for a $1000. You would get laughed out of the market. But people happily pay 4x the price of the film rebel for the digital version. That's a pretty big budget compromise to get the same camera with digital.

 

The M8 has a few more compromises then most DSLR's (filters, lens cast., etc.) but for some the benefits far outweigh the compromises. The M8 reminds me more of my old Plaubel 670 (a 6x7 medium format RF) then the film M's. It was a bit more tempremental, a lot louder and a little bigger then the Leica's. But I loved shooting with it and the image results where stellar. All round an imperfect camera that I found perfect for my uses.

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maybe he is mistaking the shutter feel for lag,

 

I think that's exactly what happened and I told him so this morning. The actual response to the shutter is very fast. I find that the camera trips the shutter exactly when I tell it to but I've used M8s for several months now and am familiar with the shutter feel. Sometimes, one needs to learn a camera.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Guest guy_mancuso

Sometimes, one needs to learn a camera

 

that says a mouthful right there.

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I think that's exactly what happened and I told him so this morning. The actual response to the shutter is very fast. I find that the camera trips the shutter exactly when I tell it to but I've used M8s for several months now and am familiar with the shutter feel. Sometimes, one needs to learn a camera.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

following this logic, the M8 is actually faster than my M6 which is why I was anticipating the action. I never had a frame where I was late, it was always early.

 

What it is is that I am unused to the sound of the motordrive following the exposure. Also in all of this, I have yet to hear a recording of an M7+winder compared to an M8. People always compare the M8 to previous M's without winders.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Actually i was told the shutter lag on the M8 is the fastest there is even against the DSLR market. What maybe the feeling is getting to that point of getting through the stages of release first. i agree sometimes that feels chunky but the shutter lag is extremely fast. Again misinformed information which bothers me since many of us spent so much time disecting this thing. Hell guys were so far past this stuff, let him enjoy making his money. Who cares

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following this logic, the M8 is actually faster than my M6 which is why I was anticipating the action. I never had a frame where I was late, it was always early.

 

What it is is that I am unused to the sound of the motordrive following the exposure. Also in all of this, I have yet to hear a recording of an M7+winder compared to an M8. People always compare the M8 to previous M's without winders.

 

Well, if the shutter is tripping earlier than you expected, that sure isn't shutter *lag*. <G>

 

BTW, I really like the Tom Abrahamson softies. What they do is to move the activating part of the finger from the finger tip to the indent below the outer knuckle. That allows the finger to be better braced and smoother as it presses the shutter release.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Actually i was told the shutter lag on the M8 is the fastest there is even against the DSLR market. What maybe the feeling is getting to that point of getting through the stages of release first. i agree sometimes that feels chunky but the shutter lag is extremely fast. Again misinformed information which bothers me since many of us spent so much time disecting this thing. Hell guys were so far past this stuff, let him enjoy making his money. Who cares

 

Hi Guy,

 

I'm still talking to Mike directly about this review and I'd love to see some of the factual information be reconsidered. And the reason for that is that Mike's writing carries some weight and there's a potential for some people to get some incorrect information from that review. Some photographers who read that review may not even bother looking at other information about the camera, and that would be unfortunate.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Guest guy_mancuso

And really that is my whole point in this conversation and what he wrote. i hate to see folks read that and just walk away without looking any further into the M8. i think there are many folks that may enjoy what the M8 can do and just having great info out there gives folks a chance to understand it and what it can and can not do. I guess I and many others here have worked our collective butts off to go through this whole process fo 6 months since introduction and coming up with great ideas, solutions, fixes , recommendations finding issues and getting them fixed and so on and so on that i just hate to see what this great forum and it's folks have done just be pissed away by bad info that simply makes the M8 look it should not be on the market at all which is far from the truth. That has been my whole point in this article , i don't care if he likes it or not but i do care that the facts are correct because frankly we worked our butts off to get the facts right. Sean glad you are attempting to correct some of this and you and I both have worked hard on the real stuff to know better but to someone new it would just leave them cold and that is not fair either.

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Well, if the shutter is tripping earlier than you expected, that sure isn't shutter *lag*. <G>

 

BTW, I really like the Tom Abrahamson softies. What they do is to move the activating part of the finger from the finger tip to the indent below the outer knuckle. That allows the finger to be better braced and smoother as it presses the shutter release.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Hear hear about the Abrahamson Softies. The shutter button is the only mechanical aspect of the M8 that is not quite what I expected. I find it quite crunchy and before I got the Softie, very difficult to feel all three pressures. Really like your review on 50's for the M8 and look forward to part 2 with the Elmar 50 and the CV f2.5. The little Elmar 50, which I thought was going to be a twice a month lens, is fast becoming my favourite on the M8. Every photo seems pin sharp edge to edge - even at A3+

 

Wilson

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Hear hear about the Abrahamson Softies. The shutter button is the only mechanical aspect of the M8 that is not quite what I expected. I find it quite crunchy and before I got the Softie, very difficult to feel all three pressures. Really like your review on 50's for the M8 and look forward to part 2 with the Elmar 50 and the CV f2.5. The little Elmar 50, which I thought was going to be a twice a month lens, is fast becoming my favourite on the M8. Every photo seems pin sharp edge to edge - even at A3+

 

Wilson

 

Thanks Wilson. Right now the big tasks are the 35s and Ultrawides reviews. I still need to get a 35/1.4 from Leica - hopefully soon. I should do a short review on the softies - possibly the shortest I've ever written.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Sean,

 

You could extend your review by doing an in-depth (or on-push) comparison between Tom's Softies and Luigi's ones.

 

 

Wilson

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Guest guy_mancuso

I just got a luigi softie, not sure what to think of it yet. Need to play more though

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Guest stnami

Time to get real and understand what a camera is for, it's for taking photographs and stop worrying about the camera.

But then again the reason for the ordinary shots on this forum could be is that the camera is harder to use than everyone here envisions. When things are in your favour bang it's spot on and quite intuitive, outside that one can easily start concentrating on the camera and not the task ahead. That's why the GRD, Luxes work well one gets out there as Mitch does without a care in the world about the camera and shoots his subjects as it is easy to work within the cameras' parameters.

Its the nit picking with the camera that hinders its use.....you don't need a friggin soft release it works fine without it.

As Mitch said it's about the image, so what Mike doesn't like the camera, there are a heap of others who don't like the camera, search the blogs and you will see. I don't like it and probably still have some misconceptions about it but having given it some nice runs and it's not for me in its present form.

Just as the constant misconception here that the DSLR can't be used in the streets as a camera must be discreet and only the Leicais, a load of rubbish/piffle that way of thinking is. Mikes opinion probably was not important in the big picture but you guys are making a concerted effort to make it important.

Mike could be right about one thing that irked people about his comments, with all this so called technical mumbo jumbo its more important to own one than use one.

As someone out there said get taking and show us the strengths of the camera, B&W it is great but not many seem to take advantage of its strength......................... just waiting for a leather strap to make it work better

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Guest guy_mancuso

ROTFLMAO , yea we should all run out and buy a D lux or GRD and really show our stuff. I think i heard everything now. The rest of my comment i can't print

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