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Leica T performs digital lens correction , a claim by dpreview.com


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There is no reason for subcontracting the manufacture if there is no cost advantages doing it in Japan, outside the Euro area.

Oh, but there is. If I was looking for a partner experienced in manufacturing high-quality AF lenses for APS-C cameras, where else would I look but in Japan?

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Oh, I can be a lot more arrogant...

 

Do you just sit around and look for tiny things to pick at? Haven't we already agreed what the "targeted" market is? My observation is that serious photographers represent a pretty small segment of camera buyers. I have a friend who was telling me she was thinking of upgrading her APS Nikon DSLR to a full frame model. I asked her why she wanted to do that and she really couldn't give me an answer but just thought she'd be able to get "better" photos with it. She knows very little about how to use a camera and is just now asking me where to take a class. I meet people like that all of the time since I go on lots of group hikes where people bring cameras and then start talking to me when they find out I'm a photographer.

 

I suspect a lot of people who have some money and know little about photography will buy the T thinking that because it is so expensive and is a German Leica with a hand polished case representing true craftsmanship, that it also will just have to give them better pictures than a less expensive Japanese camera. I wonder how many of these people will consider using a tripod.

I suspect that many so-called serious photographers bashing simple cameras cannot take a decent photograph without the " features" offered by cameras that take over their thinking.

The T is indeed not for them.

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I suspect that many so-called serious photographers bashing simple cameras cannot take a decent photograph without the " features" offered by cameras that take over their thinking.

The T is indeed not for them.

 

Any good photographer can make good photos with any camera. How is it that some cameras take over one's thinking and the T does not? To quote my recent edit on the previous page:

-------------

Hypothesize if the shoe were on the other foot... all the other APS cameras have touchscreens and a simple interface. Then Leica introduces a new model with direct controls and more features than on the others. "Finally a mirrorless APS camera for serious photography."

 

Yeah, I think everyone should start learning photography with a view camera before they move on to any automation. But why care about having skills today when they are so unnecessary?

Edited by AlanG
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Oh, I can be a lot more arrogant...

 

Do you just sit around and look for tiny things to pick at? Haven't we already agreed what the "targeted" market is? My observation is that serious photographers represent a pretty small segment of camera buyers. I have a friend who was telling me she was thinking of upgrading her APS Nikon DSLR to a full frame model. I asked her why she wanted to do that and she really couldn't give me an answer but just thought she'd be able to get "better" photos with it. She knows very little about how to use a camera and is just now asking me where to take a class. I meet people like that all of the time since I go on lots of group hikes where people bring cameras and then start talking to me when they find out I'm a photographer.

 

I suspect a lot of people who have some money and know little about photography will buy the T thinking that because it is so expensive and is a German Leica with a hand polished case representing true craftsmanship, that it also will just have to give them better pictures than a less expensive Japanese camera. I wonder how many of these people will consider using a tripod.

 

Hypothesize if the shoe were on the other foot... all the other APS cameras have touchscreens and a simple interface. Then Leica introduces a new model with direct controls and more features than on the others. "Finally a mirrorless APS camera for serious photography."

 

I sold cameras for 8 years of all makes and models and have many friends now with moderate to high end equipment. A great number have little appreciation of the full capabilities of the camera and rely heavily on "program" mode and jpegs, and genuinely haven't gone beyond the intro pages in the instruction manuals. The camera manufacturers know this.

 

Whilst by the very nature of this site the great majority of contributors are skilled photographers and clearly from some of the posted pictures are excellent at what they do,but I would respectfully suggest that they make up a small minority of buyers and users of cameras and that includes the best offerings of Leica in some instances.

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Alan, you miss the point completely - see the many posts criticizing Leica for adding LV and Video to the M….

 

What is the point? Leicas should have a traditional interface and no live view or video? Then how does the T fit in to that tradition? You won't find anyone with a more traditional formal education and background in photography than I have. I was calculating flash guide numbers in my head when I was 13.

 

Yeah I took heat for suggesting Leica needed to come up with a way to add a live EVF to a digital M back in 2006 when the M8 just came out. Over and over again I pushed for EVF and more features to expand the M system's usefulness. Now the M is moving in the direction I suggested but still kind of slowly. Tradition is fine in religions. And the T is trying to catch up with the rest of the world's APS technology.

 

Think how different things would be if back around 1960, Leica was competing head to head with Nikon and continued that way... growing and pushing technology with them. But they did not make the choice to do so or were simply unable to keep up. Why?

 

In 60 years they have barely thought of any significant way to improve the viewfinder/rangefinder mechanism? They waited until the S2 to incorporate AF.

 

I applaud them for the effort with the T. I do hope it will make them some money and I do think they know what they are doing.

Edited by AlanG
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What is the point? Leicas should have a traditional interface and no live view or video? Then how does the T fit in to that tradition? You won't find anyone with a more traditional formal education and background in photography than I have. I was calculating flash guide numbers in my head when I was 13.

 

Yeah I took heat for suggesting Leica needed to come up with a way to add a live EVF to a digital M back in 2006 when the M8 just came out. Over and over again I pushed for EVF and more features to expand the M system's usefulness. Now the M is moving in the direction I suggested but still kind of slowly. Tradition is fine in religions. And the T is trying to catch up with the rest of the world's APS technology.

 

Think how different things would be if back around 1960, Leica was competing head to head with Nikon and continued that way... growing and pushing technology with them. But they did not make the choice to do so or were simply unable to keep up. Why?

 

In 60 years they have barely thought of any significant way to improve the viewfinder/rangefinder mechanism? They waited until the S2 to incorporate AF.

 

I applaud them for the effort with the T. I do hope it will make them some money and I do think they know what they are doing.

 

Ironically it's only because Leica failed to keep up with the technological advances that it is still alive today, and solely due to the 1953 designed M. I have tried all kinds of AF cameras, DSLR, Mirrorless, MF, you name it. The latest was the Sony A7 with AF native lenses. Despite all my recent troubles with Leica QC I came back to them running in horror to what kind of poor user experience the AF mirrorless cameras offer.

 

I agree that Leica could have made some improvements to the RF, maybe some way to zoom in and out, basically changing the magnification, and allowing wider angle frames when you zoom out, and better focusing with long lenses when you zoom in. This would have been not too difficult to do, even the Contax G did it.

 

Leica could have also been more generous in their use of the lowest and cheapest and most outdated components of LCD screens, processors ... etc that caused all the problems on the M9 and still cause problems on the M 240.

 

But still I wouldn't shoot with anything other than an M.

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I don't understand the urge for bashing a fine product made from a very cool manufacturer.

Alan, if you really want -for some strange reasons of yours- Leica to fail and shut down, then that explains it.

On the other hand people will buy the T because it is a revolutionary product both in superb finish, compactness and ease of use. Everyone using a smartphone will immediately be able to use this camera too. Isn't that what's it all about? If you fail to see why this camera is revolution, then that is fine as well. Many couldn't see why the iphone was such a success or the ipod or the ipad, yet Apple now moves forward building a mothership :D

Leica claimed they optically correct their lenses. DPR never proved us they don't. There is room for everyone...

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Ironically it's only because Leica failed to keep up with the technological advances that it is still alive today, and solely due to the 1953 designed M.

 

From what I understand, they just barely made it out alive because the M8 saved them. Why did they have to wait until things were so desperate before they could change? OK it took new ownership, a new direction, and an infusion of capital.

 

I think it is great that Leica made the T - from the standpoint of potential profitability for Leica. I hope it does well for them and the buyers will love their cameras and make nice photos.

 

But I simply do not see why many experienced Leica photographers would get any fascination from it. Other than being easy for inexperienced photographers to use, (other cameras are easy too) what new ground does it break that will help you take better photos? Is it that hard to make good photos with all of the other cameras out there? It seems very un-M like too.

 

BTW, I'm only writing a lot here because I am pissed off at something else entirely and this is a nice way to vent my energy. I could not care less who buys a T or why. I am just doing a thought exercise to distract myself. Someday Leica will make a FF pro version somewhat like this basic T design and all will be OK in the world again.

Edited by AlanG
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I don't understand the urge for bashing a fine product made from a very cool manufacturer.

Alan, if you really want -for some strange reasons of yours- Leica to fail and shut down, then that explains it.

On the other hand people will buy the T because it is a revolutionary product both in superb finish, compactness and ease of use. Everyone using a smartphone will immediately be able to use this camera too. Isn't that what's it all about? If you fail to see why this camera is revolution, then that is fine as well. Many couldn't see why the iphone was such a success or the ipod or the ipad, yet Apple now moves forward building a mothership :D

Leica claimed they optically correct their lenses. DPR never proved us they don't. There is room for everyone...

 

I don't understand why you are so defensive. I see why the camera could sell well.

Every lens that has more than one element is optically corrected to some degree.

Can't see how the T is revolutionary in terms of compactness.

OK, photography is all about owning a camera that is as easy to use as a smartphone. Samsung already had that covered with a couple of models. Did you call them revolutionary too? I won't be happy until I have a camera that is as easy to use as my toaster.

Edited by AlanG
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T because it is a revolutionary product
There is nothing revolutionary about the camera, slowish lens, touch screens are not new........... aluminum............. has been around for ages, the sensor is similar to what is around, having a snap on VF is old hat etc etc:p Edited by Imants
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(AlanG) "Other than being easy for inexperienced photographers to use, (other cameras are easy too) what new ground does it break that will help you take better photos?

 

IMO the camera itself is arguably almost irrelevant. The only ways to take a better photo is through timing, shot technique, and most of all, having a better "eye".

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....

But I simply do not see why many experienced Leica photographers would get any fascination from it. ....

 

Neither do I... but seems to me that even in this forum, which of course is full of experienced Leica photographers , not so many have got fascination from T : my feel is that :

 

1) The ones that have tested / used it recognize is a fine camera, with some detail that give a certain Leica feel.

2) The ones that are thinking to buy (or have ordered) it as a companion for their M do value the facts that it can accept their lenses and it comes from a brand they are historically tied to.

 

I think that none of group 2 (in which I include myself) does seriously think that they will obtain better photos if, instead of T, they 'd buy a Nex6 or Fuij XE2 or xxx..., imho they basically think that if they decide to have an APS mirrorless as a 2nd (or 3rd or... ;)) body, they prefer it is a Leica one, given that it looks to be no bad.

 

 

Anyway... Leica continues - time to time - to "slide on banana's peel" in terms of communication... :p : with the X Vario, there was that awkward allusion to "mini M"... with the T, they dare to speak of their competence in optical design in relation to "trivial" APS AF Zoom lenses :rolleyes: ... in Italy we say "Non c'è due senza tre" ("you always have a 3rd after a 2nd") : let's wait for the next one.. :o

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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Not at all, but the amount of software correction makes it seem like they didn't do much optically. This doesn't make it a bad camera. It's just that expectations were set one way and a few days later the truth comes out.

How exactly were expectations set one way?. Are there references to Leica's specific claims, and if so can someone point me to them? What 'truth' has come out? (The DPReview statement was wooly over just what was said to them).

 

I'm frankly baffled at the amount of hot air and whimpering over the T:mad:. I won't be buying one because it doesn't really have a place within my requirements, not because it uses a mix of lens design and software correction which, if it produces 'good' results for its users is utterly irrelevant, isn't it?

 

As for price, well why should anyone buy anything more expensive than they have to? Choice is obviously irrelevant isn't it?

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Then, I cannot understand the price.

 

It is three times more expensive than Fuji's 18-55 f2.8-4 lens.

 

Leica cannot justify the price.....

 

They never did... :o... probably their mktg. has evaluated that a certain price tag for "body+basic zoom" is THE RIGHT ONE, so the zoom can be priced <PRICE> ... up to them, on market results, to demonstrate that their evaluation / projection was right... managers are accustomed to risk their jobs on such questions... :cool:

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How exactly were expectations set one way?. Are there references to Leica's specific claims, and if so can someone point me to them? What 'truth' has come out? (The DPReview statement was wooly over just what was said to them).

 

Whatever Leica communicated orally in press briefings is hearsay coming from DPR.

 

No specific claims: instead general claims about T lenses being legacy glass, embodying 150 years of Leica optical precision manufacturing. The hand-polished body drives home the point that the lenses are not ordinary, and belong to a tradition of hand-made artisanship. Meanwhile dear Dr Kaufmann proudly intones: "This is the most beautiful thing we have ever made."

 

The truth is simply that these lenses have more in common with mass-produced modern Japan-made glass of their kind, including reliance on software correction, than Wetzlar-specific optical magic.

 

(By the way, it's not xenophobia that makes some people balk at the made in Japan label. It's simply snobbery. Ontario-made gear, anyone? This is Leica after all.)

 

The gap between the reality and presentation is just silly hype. No falsehood technically, just a false impression. Understandable that some people here can see through it and decline to take it seriously.

Edited by jaapv
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I bought Sigma's 17-50 f2.8 zoom for my Canon APS cameras. It's optically excellent with well controlled distortion and almost no CA, and a constant f2.8. Of course it's not a very compact lens either. I paid £300 for it (new) with a 5 year warranty. I'd say it performs better than the Leica T zoom, just from what I've seen so far, even without taking price into consideration.

 

However, Leica are always more expensive. That's the expectation, so I don't think price alone will determine if the T is a success or not.

 

Most buyers will stick with just the standard zoom and will never take anything other than jpegs. Very few prints will be made. For the type of user the T is seemingly aimed at (and I'm not including anyone here in this, I'm talking new customers) it will fulfill its role - a premium brand 'luxury' item.

 

But, as I've said before in other threads, Leica can only trade off their reputation for excellence for so long. It appears that the pack zoom isn't quite up to what we'd expect from a Leica lens, if we're being totally honest here.

 

Leica will get away with this one (given the typical buyer - see above) but they shouldn't take their reputation for granted IMHO.

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More than taking their reputation for granted, the company is instead going over the top, advertising their reputation. If you didn't know before about the Wetzlar tradition, after hearing Kaufmann on video caressing a T and ruminating about the meaning of life, you do (or think you do). More than anything, this indicates the obvious: T buyers are envisaged as a market new to Leica.

 

In order to capture 1% market share, in my opinion, Leica has been forced to cut costs and lower standards. and then cover it up by reinforcing the brand history and snob appeal. The T is a product that belongs, like no other Leica product, in one of their fashionable new boutiques, and hopefully in the hands in a ritzy and photographically ignorant clientele.

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The gap between the reality and presentation is just silly hype. No falsehood technically, just a false impression. Understandable that some people here can see through it and decline to take it seriously.

 

But, as I've said before in other threads, Leica can only trade off their reputation for excellence for so long. It appears that the pack zoom isn't quite up to what we'd expect from a Leica lens, if we're being totally honest here.

 

Leica will get away with this one (given the typical buyer - see above) but they shouldn't take their reputation for granted IMHO.

 

 

I couldn’t agree more.

 

It wouldn’t do Leica any harm to curb the excesses of its marketing copywriters and give more prominence to the actual merits of its products. I wouldn’t expect them to ditch the heritage angle altogether but leaving it to be understood that T lens are manufactured in the same way as the classic lenses of yesteryear is less than honest, in my opinion. Do T lenses really belong in the same class as Leica's M and R lenses? That is what is being implied but carefully not stated directly. As far as I know, there are no downright lies in this puff piece from Leica’s web site but I don’t see much truth either.

 

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