Guest badbob Posted August 19, 2014 Share #101 Posted August 19, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I totally disagree. The Sonys are in no way crap. They are capable cameras which render results that more than good enough for the customer group they are aimed at. I decide d that the T was too expensive for the purpose I need it for, I.e. rarely used backup, so I got a used Nex7. There is nothing wrong with it. Value for money I would say. Not everybody is prepared or able to spend Leica money on photographic equipment. That is no reason to diss them, nor the gear aimed at that customer group especially as it is 98% of the total market. Sony has indeed its own huge niche, Leica its small one. So what? We are all part of the masses in many respects. At least, I am. Compared to the T, the Sony indeed is crap. Note however that I actually encouraged my artist friend to buy the thing, and even helped him to get started with it. So I wasn't suggesting that it's unusable or wouldn't take a good picture, just that physically it's a poor quality camera. I have a long history of Sony purchases (unfortunately), of items that failed that were well cared for, and some nightmare stories about Sony's repair scams. That's right - scams. So maybe my friend will learn, and maybe not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 19, 2014 Posted August 19, 2014 Hi Guest badbob, Take a look here Best reason to purchase the Leica T. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted August 19, 2014 Share #102 Posted August 19, 2014 I wonder what makes a Sony camera "crap" and Panasonic ones "not crap" 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 19, 2014 Share #103 Posted August 19, 2014 Leica's Holy Blessing? 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted August 19, 2014 Share #104 Posted August 19, 2014 I wonder what makes a Sony camera "crap" and Panasonic ones "not crap" Some of the Sony products I've had (many) feel very good in hand, and some Panasonic products I've had feel lousy in hand, so there are as many exceptions as rules. I would say that my long string of Sony malfunctions compared to no Panasonic malfunctions says something. I'd also say that whereas I've gotten consistently good batteries from Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, Leica, Samsung and a few others, my Sony battery experience is they're crap - they'll take a few charges and die. And Sony isn'y alone in that - Motorola Star-Tac batteries, Hewlett-Packard batteries, HTC phone batteries - all crap. But Sony's crowning achievement was the $2500 Mini-Vaio computer I bought, which failed after a couple of months. Being in the heart of Southern California, and me being a software developer, I figured it would be a snap to get service. But no - Sony required it be sent to *Florida* - Florida!! And when they returned it a month later, it had a different O/S installed - one that I definitely was not authorized for. Oh, well - the computer failed again a month later, and I trashed it. So it's not just an impression - it's 40-plus years of consumer electronics experience. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted August 19, 2014 Share #105 Posted August 19, 2014 Leica's Holy Blessing? There are quite a few people who've invested a LOT of money in Leica products over the years, and being the consumer advocate that I am, I have a lot of respect for those customers and their feelings about their investments. We really should have a customer-centric viewpoint on camera purchases, especially for Leica customers who have enough faith (or whatever) to pay much bigger prices for their Leica gear. BTW, I lost my T/18-56 lenscap, so I called Leica Miami, twice within a week, and also sent an email to the main guy, asking how I can order one. No replies 12 days later. I called Leica HQ in New Jersey, and the very helpful service guy is expediting one to me now. So far I've spent about $30k with Leica Miami in the past year, but that's not enough for a call-back. Hopefully things will improve.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted August 19, 2014 Share #106 Posted August 19, 2014 Because some people will find the information useful -- which it is intended to be. Sorry you took offense at my observations. I was seriously considering buying a T, and did buy an X-Vario (which I returned after a day's use and evaluation). I also owned and used heavily a Leica X1 for several years, which is a great camera too. I am sure the same can be said about the X2 (although I have never owned or used one). IMHO, and for many users, the Fuji X-T1 is a good alternative to Leica's APS-C sensor-based camera offerings, and indeed has many advantages with respect to them (not the least being a wide selection of fine Fuji glass, a really good sensor and user interface, and attractive prices). IMHO, Leica ignores the Fuji X-T1 system at its own peril. Competition in the camera industry is alive and well. My comments are not intended to slam Leica (I have been a Leica owner for over 40 years, and will remain so), but to provide constructive feedback and commentary about my experiences and observations with these cameras. Yeah and I bought a Olympus E-M1 over the X-T1. Sharper and quicker, better lenses and properly renders landscape and foliage. This could go on forever Also the comment above about Sony build quality is simply not true. The RX1 and A7 are superb. I also played around with a A6000 and it's also terrifically built. The Leica T is unique and wonderful. All the top cameras today are in spitting distance of IQ, it's handling and enjoyment and ability to get the result that one should be looking for. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted August 19, 2014 Share #107 Posted August 19, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Compared to the T, the Sony indeed is crap. Note however that I actually encouraged my artist friend to buy the thing, and even helped him to get started with it. So I wasn't suggesting that it's unusable or wouldn't take a good picture, just that physically it's a poor quality camera. I. We can always hope that there will be a pro hasselblad version of that Sony. How a hasselblad camera can be crap?!? ;-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 19, 2014 Share #108 Posted August 19, 2014 Ah - Sony Lunatic 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted August 19, 2014 Share #109 Posted August 19, 2014 ...Sony is for the masses, Leica is not. Apple is for the masses, too. Crap? In fact, the T takes lots of its design cues from Apple products -- deliberately so. The intriguing thing is how something like an iPhone can sell in the zillions and still feel special. Sony picked up some top awards at this year's prestigious Red Dot Design Awards: Sony Global - Sony Design | Awards | Red Dot Design Awards 2014 It can't be too bad! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted August 19, 2014 Share #110 Posted August 19, 2014 What's being ignored here is the elephant in the room - i.e. why the T costs so much more than the Sony or Fuji, and on the other hand, why the T is so much cheaper than the M's for comparable functionality (for example zooming). I suppose what nobody can see won't hurt them, as the saying goes, but if I were selling Leica T's I'd put the real customer's attention on the facts I've noted, not on the irrelevant comparisons to mass-market cameras that cost 1/3 to 1/4 as much. Say what you like about Sony, but my rather lengthy experience is real. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted August 19, 2014 Share #111 Posted August 19, 2014 Apple is for the masses, too. Crap? In fact, the T takes lots of its design cues from Apple products -- deliberately so. The intriguing thing is how something like an iPhone can sell in the zillions and still feel special. Sony picked up some top awards at this year's prestigious Red Dot Design Awards: Sony Global - Sony Design | Awards | Red Dot Design Awards 2014 It can't be too bad! The Apple products we have at home (several Macbooks, desktop Macs, numerous ipads and ipods - all have proven to have very limited lifetimes, especially the screens. Now if you want a lesson in Apple history to compare to Leica history, I can tell hair-raising stories about frighteningly bad product from the Apple II through the 1990's. But of course they're "really good" right now. Let's see how it turns out once that 100 bn dollars is looted from the piggy bank. Jobs is dead, and innovation at Apple isn't going to come from a committee. Same with Leica to some extent - they got really lucky when they got the man they have now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 19, 2014 Share #112 Posted August 19, 2014 I am beginning to wonder about the external influences around you, as everything you see around you except your D-Lux, which is not even built by Leica, breaks down and is useless crap. It sounds like you live in a post-apocalyptic warp. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted August 20, 2014 Share #113 Posted August 20, 2014 I am beginning to wonder about the external influences around you, as everything you see around you except your D-Lux, which is not even built by Leica, breaks down and is useless crap. It sounds like you live in a post-apocalyptic warp. This is a personal attack, not a discussion of camera issues. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted August 20, 2014 Share #114 Posted August 20, 2014 This is a personal attack, not a discussion of camera issues. My take on that is that it is an observation strictly based on info you posted. If commenting I would probably come to similar conclusions. 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted August 20, 2014 Share #115 Posted August 20, 2014 I am beginning to wonder about the external influences around you, as everything you see around you except your D-Lux, which is not even built by Leica, breaks down and is useless crap. It sounds like you live in a post-apocalyptic warp. This is a personal attack, not a discussion of camera issues. . . . and there was me thinking it was a joke By the way, I've had similar experiences with Sony - really good ones with Apple. But I wouldn't presume to think that either was necessarily typical - certainly not on a statistical basis. all the best 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted August 20, 2014 Share #116 Posted August 20, 2014 My take on that is that it is an observation strictly based on info you posted. If commenting I would probably come to similar conclusions. My understanding is that a personal attack is *wrong* period, regardless of the "justification". But maybe you make exceptions when you personally approve the personal attack. Yes? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted August 20, 2014 Share #117 Posted August 20, 2014 ....I've had similar experiences with Sony - really good ones with Apple. But I wouldn't presume to think that either was necessarily typical - certainly not on a statistical basis. all the best My long experience with Sony, and Hewlett-Packard as well, does provide statistics that I can learn from. But Sony's repair scam isn't a statistic or accident. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted August 20, 2014 Share #118 Posted August 20, 2014 My long experience with Sony, and Hewlett-Packard as well, does provide statistics that I can learn from. But Sony's repair scam isn't a statistic or accident. Well I was talking about general statistics. As for the service scam with Vaio I couldn't agree more, but apparently (at least in Europe) the camera service is now excellent (heard from multiple sources) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 20, 2014 Share #119 Posted August 20, 2014 I have had Sony products since the 70s. I can't say that I have ever had a problem with any of them. Have never had anything but a Sony TV, had Sony tape recorders, a clock radio, normal radios. Never a problem. Haven't ever had a Vaio for an obvious reason. My Apple products have been similarly good company. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted August 20, 2014 Share #120 Posted August 20, 2014 Well I was talking about general statistics. As for the service scam with Vaio I couldn't agree more, but apparently (at least in Europe) the camera service is now excellent (heard from multiple sources) It's good their camera service is better, else my artist friend might stop giving me the discounts I've been getting. He wanted to get more accurate color rendering on outdoor scenes he would paint from his photos, and also get accurate snapshots indoors of paintings to post on Facebook etc. A modern camera like the Sony should do that, and I've seen much better color rendering (in JPEG) from the last couple years' worth of Panasonics too. Leica has been pretty good with JPEGs, considering that they don't have to update their firmware as rapidly as Sony or Panasonic. (a little joke there) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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