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StephenPatterson

No focus peaking???

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Well Marc - I see where you're coming from, and it's for sure that this camera is not going to replace my M or Monochrom.

 

. . . . but - I've been shooting with the thing for 6 months now, together with most of the obvious competition (Sony A7®, Fuji X-T1, OMD E-M1). The sensor is pretty much identical to the one in the Pentax K5 IIs - not state of the art, but very good.

 

It's certainly mediocre in terms of features, but I've come to really like using it - for the last month there's no particular reason to pick it up (over the M or the E-M1 or the A7 - until that went yesterday) . . but I have picked it up. The results are good, the lenses are good, and it's a pleasure to use . . . I don't think that really adds up to mediocrity?

 

To me it seems like a bit of a work in progress - the touch screen means that Leica really can make significant changes in the firmware, but it's the first body in a new range, with a well thought out and solid new lens mount.

 

It feels like it has a future to it. If it sells (and it's certainly looking like it will), then Leica will feel more confident spending more money on R&D on it's successor.

 

Jono, too be clear … Mediocre as it relates to Leica standards, or the expectation of such from Leica products. Note that I didn't compare it to anything except the standards set by each category of Leica offerings.

 

Unlike many Leica offerings, once the novelty and affected advertising tapers off, I believe this will fade into obscurity being neither fish nor fowl.

 

Perhaps you are right, and it is the first baby steps to a new better developed system. In that case, I'll wait … since I don't have $4K burning a hole in my pocket.

 

To others that say I have to use the camera to deny it as useful to me, I reply: "I didn't just fall off the Turnip truck". I wear reading glasses so focusing with an LCD is slow and a big PITA. Adding an EVF defeats the small and "Minimalist" attribute. Lack of IBIS makes using the LCD a dicey proposition at best in too many circumstances. Okay for some, not for me.

 

I also wonder how many cameras Leica can spend R&D attention on, or any attention? I haven't been following closely, but did they fix the auto ISO on the flagship 35mm M240?

 

- Marc

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Perhaps you are right, and it is the first baby steps to a new better developed system. In that case, I'll wait … since I don't have $4K burning a hole in my pocket.

 

Sounds eminently sensible. But yes, I think it's the first baby steps to something different.

 

To others that say I have to use the camera to deny it as useful to me, I reply: "I didn't just fall off the Turnip truck". I wear reading glasses so focusing with an LCD is slow and a big PITA. Adding an EVF defeats the small and "Minimalist" attribute. Lack of IBIS makes using the LCD a dicey proposition at best in too many circumstances. Okay for some, not for me.

Well. I'm right up for IBIS, but the A7 doesn't have it either

I also wonder how many cameras Leica can spend R&D attention on, or any attention? I haven't been following closely, but did they fix the auto ISO on the flagship 35mm M240?

 

- Marc

Yes Marc. I think it's the best implementation of auto ISO I've seen now. Together with refinements to exposure compensation, options to turn off frills (live view and video) .

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It feels like it has a future to it. If it sells (and it's certainly looking like it will), then Leica will feel more confident spending more money on R&D on it's successor.

 

And no doubt, that model will have additional features that people don't want and better performance that they don't really need. So none will upgrade.

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And no doubt, that model will have additional features that people don't want and better performance that they don't really need. So none will upgrade.

 

Or perhaps it'll be even more simple and refined, paring everything down to the minimum that one really needs.

 

A modern day M3 perhaps?

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So why is so much focus aimed at me? If you don't feel I am entitled to an opinion based on examining the specs and price, watching and reading reviews, and processing it all through my 50 years of camera experience, then ignore what I write.. Do you think I will forget it all by just trying it and falling in love with it?

 

For the umpteenth time, I and others have clearly said that you are indeed entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else. But that opinion tires after your numerous and repetitive posts, none of which seem to recognize that others may hold another opinion just as valid. Mine is non-committal…so what?

 

If you think we want you to change your opinion about the camera, then you really just don't get it. Knowing a lot about cameras apparently doesn't make one necessarily wise about human behavior and purchase practices, despite 50 years of sales and camera experience.

 

The conversation is aimed at you because you've made it about you and your assessment, challenging others as if there could be no other logical determination.

 

Jeff

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Jeff...... you are banging your head against a brick wall......

 

Perhaps we should just ignore this thread until enough folk have actually used the camera and decided if focussing without focus peaking is fine or not ..... and all the other 'missing features' are a major flaw in normal usage......

 

until then it's all bullshit.

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To others that say I have to use the camera to deny it as useful to me, I reply: "I didn't just fall off the Turnip truck". I wear reading glasses so focusing with an LCD is slow and a big PITA. Adding an EVF defeats the small and "Minimalist" attribute. Lack of IBIS makes using the LCD a dicey proposition at best in too many circumstances. Okay for some, not for me.

 

Since I was one who suggested use was important, I was referring only to those who decided it was worth trying the camera in the first place to meet some perceived needs. As I mentioned, I don't fall into that camp and, like you, have concluded that the camera doesn't suit my tastes, particularly with exclusive reliance on EVF or LCD viewing….non-starters for me.

 

The point, rather, was that for others, the proof will be in the testing. And until then, it's silly for anyone to suggest that a pronounced lack of features (or other deficiencies) automatically makes the camera a poor value proposition for everyone (we know who). The fact that you ended by saying "okay for some, not for me" is refreshing…and my point is that for those "some", it will take some testing; before then, it's just hot air.

 

Jeff

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I wear reading glasses so focusing with an LCD is slow and a big PITA. Adding an EVF defeats the small and "Minimalist" attribute. Lack of IBIS makes using the LCD a dicey proposition at best in too many circumstances. Okay for some, not for me.

 

I kind of hope that this sort of technology advances in the realm of small pocket cameras: First pictures of the Sony RX100M3 camera with a built-in EVF | Photo Rumors

 

I also dislike using the LCD for everything and while I prefer an OVF, a good quality EVF is fine. In addition, I think buttons can sometimes make sense when using a camera with an EVF. It means that you can adjust settings while looking through the EVF and use the physical buttons by touch to make those settings, and not be so wholly dependent on looking at a screen (that's what I do with an X2 and EVF; I know where the buttons are by feel, and can make changes through the viewfinder without needing the LCD on.)

 

Anyway, it was expected that 'pop-up' finders would arrive soon and I guess they now have. It'll be interesting to see how well they actually work.

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Unlike many Leica offerings, once the novelty and affected advertising tapers off, I believe this will fade into obscurity being neither fish nor fowl.

 

 

Major innovations of the Leica T include the "app" interface, which allows the user to alter functionality much like a smart phone (and hence will appeal to a broader audience) and the interchangeable lens system in such a compact package having an APS-C sensor. Moreover, because of the smaller sensor (as opposed to full frame), more can be done with more compact lenses, a huge attraction IMHO.

 

For these reasons, I surmise that the Leica T is not intended to be a novelty but instead is the early attempt at paradigm change for Leica - entry into the newly created market for high quality AF compact APS-C mirrorless interchangeable lens digital cameras (try saying that in one breath!). Leica stuck a toe in with the X1/X2/XV, and with the T has jumped in with both feet, so to speak.

 

As you mention there is a risk that once the initial buzz calms down that the T will fail to gain traction. Three arguments would seem to argue against this.

 

First, it seems to me that the T complements rather than acts as a substitute for the M, providing AF and even smaller lenses. I suspect the T may gain in popularity among M owners, because with an adapter it can effectively utilize M lenses and with its own lenses you get AF. Thus the T could be a backup to an M and could be used for situations for which the M may not be well suited - thus a complement rather than a substitute for the M.

 

Next, there's a good chance the T will appeal to X-system users as an intermediate step between the X and the M, because of the lower entry cost and the ability to take M glass (good for testing MF and lens quality before committing to an M).

 

Finally, I suspect new users will be drawn to the T, because of it's "app" interface and AF (lower learning curve) as well as cool-looking lines and high quality lenses and sensor.

Edited by michaelbrenner

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I kind of hope that this sort of technology advances in the realm of small pocket cameras: First pictures of the Sony RX100M3 camera with a built-in EVF | Photo Rumors

 

 

Except it's got the finder and flash reversed...

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Sounds eminently sensible. But yes, I think it's the first baby steps to something different.

 

 

Well. I'm right up for IBIS, but the A7 doesn't have it either

 

Yes Marc. I think it's the best implementation of auto ISO I've seen now. Together with refinements to exposure compensation, options to turn off frills (live view and video) .

 

Okay Jono, let's see where the baby walks to : -)

 

Personally, I've refrained from making comparisons to other cameras like the A7 … or more appropriately, the A6000 … but if you insist : -)

 

The A7 has a built-in EVF so is more akin to traditional shooting with the camera pressed against your face rather than at arms length or a tack-on EVF … and it at least one useful IS lens (hopefully more to come). IBIS would have been better.

 

The A6000 (as shown in the linked video review), is fast at everything that the T is slow at … which is almost everything that matters IMO. The only thing the A6000 is slower at is draining your bank account : -)

 

However, I'd prefer to leave that sort of black-hole argument to others.

 

- Marc

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Except it's got the finder and flash reversed...

 

Yes, it's clearly a right eye dominant finder, like the Leica M series, the Fuji XE2 and X100s, Sony A6000 (and just about every camera made), and is the reason the flash was moved to the center.

 

And sure, for left eye dominant people this sort of finder positioning has always been an issue. The Sony AR series and Fuji XT1 somewhat resolved that concern. But the industry has always favored right dominant designs. And at least in the digital age it's just smashing a nose against the screen and no longer a finger in the eye while trying to advance the film

 

Anyway, this attempt is with a pocket sized camera and that's interesting to me (although they did have to do away with a hot shoe.) The point is that I'd like to see more of this instead of attaching external EVFs onto cameras that have no finders. It definitely keeps pocket cameras truly small.

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Okay Jono, let's see where the baby walks to : -)

 

Personally, I've refrained from making comparisons to other cameras like the A7 … or more appropriately, the A6000 … but if you insist : -)

 

The A7 has a built-in EVF so is more akin to traditional shooting with the camera pressed against your face rather than at arms length or a tack-on EVF … and it at least one useful IS lens (hopefully more to come). IBIS would have been better.

 

The A6000 (as shown in the linked video review), is fast at everything that the T is slow at … which is almost everything that matters IMO. The only thing the A6000 is slower at is draining your bank account : -)

 

However, I'd prefer to leave that sort of black-hole argument to others.

 

- Marc

Hi Marc

Of course, we all know all of this, although it isn't quite as simple as you make it:

 

With the EVF plugged in the eye start makes it identical to a built in EVF to use, and it clicks in firmly and stays there (in my bag right now).

 

I can hand hold the T at slower shutter speeds the the A7 WITH OSS because of the difference in the shutter. Added to which the kit zoom is better than any Sony zooms. Of course this also applies to M lenses.

 

Look, I'm not suggesting this wouldn't be a better camera with IBIS and a built in EVF. but checking boxes can be misleading, and as a first shot for a new system the interface is interesting and different,.

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As a left-eye photographer I find the position of the Visoflex to be better than the built-in finder on my Fuji X100S—there seems to be more nose-room, if that's the right way to put it.

 

Aesthetically, I find the design to be pleasing. A black, cylindrical finder directly above a black, cylindrical lens, both against an aluminium body looks good to me. But as with most things in this thread, it's a matter of opinion

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Ah, I'm a lefty too and my X100 LCD can attest to it. Glad to read some more real world experiences, John.

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Yes, no focus peaking. Leica didn't want a poorly implemented feature to ruin the otherwise fluid and responsive experience. If if couldn't be done to a level commensurate with the rest of the camera it was omitted.

 

With magnified view, it is very easy to gauge focus accuracy. The most challenging lens I tried on the T was the 180mm APO-Elmarit-R. I shot it wide-open handheld at a hummingbird aviary. I was surprised at how much easier and accurate this turned out to be than I had expected.

 

M lenses like my 90mm Elmarit-M were super easy to use and I nailed focus every time.

 

Not sure how necessary focus peaking really is, as I've found that when I rely on it on the M240, I end up slightly front or back-focused as the peaking range tends to be less precise than the 5x magnified view and visual evaluation.

 

Agreed and the focus peaking not necessary and that this is better in fact..

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After 3 weeks of using T (with M lenses) and Visoflex,

I decide to return it!!! for the following reasons:

1/ no peaking focus (yes, I need it, even thought no PF still fine but in fast shooting mode, I want it) and I need it in movie mode too... I can't use Visoflex in Movie mode.

2/ When I shoot in continuous mode (shooting model) I can't see my subject move (there is no way I can turn off 1s review) so I can't compose the picture properly!

I am sorry, I wish Leica can hear me, no PF is a mistake IMO, Leica will have my $ again if they decide to add it in the next firmware update.

 

Regards

Sonny

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